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Author Topic: USA Today on Egyptian Elections  (Read 4115 times)
kathyp
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« on: December 06, 2011, 10:01:27 AM »

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-12-04/israel-egypt-elections/51641978/1

interesting article.  not a surprise. 

the Egyptians wanted democracy.  unfortunately, those who staged a revolution for freedom are not those who will be in power.  in the end, they will probably not even be represented, and can only hope that they well not be forced to live in a regressive system.  so goes democracy.  he who musters the most votes, makes all the rules.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 10:34:49 AM »

regressive system.
Don't forget that regressing away from individual rights is the same as PROgressing towards government rule.  So regressive & Progressive are really the same thing.
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T Beek
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 10:53:45 AM »

I can only agree that its no surprise that the article appeared in USA Today Wink when volumes of other discriptions have been mostly ignored by mainstream media.  There's really a lot more out there for those seeking a more complete picture. 

Just gotta look.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 11:36:35 AM »

you are correct.  and there was lots out there before the "Arab Spring". 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 12:05:56 PM »

Funny isn't it that 'Arab Spring' is largely an American Phrase and belief (we believe what we're told to believe grin).  When in fact, people in many parts of the Middle East have been fighting and 'dieing' (mostly dieing) for freedom from tyrannical rule for a very long time.

We could start with U.S history in 'Iran' beginning in 1954 with the CIA backed overthrow of a 'democratically' elected Administration (the FIRST in its history) and installation of the, formerly exiled Shah (of Iran) and his subsequent overthrow/escape during the Iranian Revolution (its what they still call it) of 1979, their taking of American hostages, who were released upon the swearing in of Ronald Reagan, who just 30 years ago on December 4Th 'authorized the CIA to conduct domestic surveillance', specifically on American citizens calling attention to and asking tough questions regarding U.S. shenanigans in Central America and their relationship to Iran.  There were (and still are) lots of questions.  This is American History few Americans know, yet volumes have been written and are available. 

You can bet every Iranian knows this history, likely every one in the Middle East.

See the cat?  See the Cradle?  Kudos to KV!  Bless his soul.  Can't make this stuff up.

thomas
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 02:27:16 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 04:06:43 PM »

the Egyptians wanted democracy.  unfortunately, those who staged a revolution for freedom are not those who will be in power.  in the end, they will probably not even be represented, and can only hope that they well not be forced to live in a regressive system.  so goes democracy.  he who musters the most votes, makes all the rules.
Hmmmm, this sounds like something that happened around here some 235 years ago.  We didn’t get real democracy either.  Instead we got a bunch of representatives that don’t represent the desires of the people.  

Their religious party of representives is called the Brotherhood, ours is called the Republicans.  
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 04:46:52 PM »

Their religious party of representives is called the Brotherhood, ours is called the Republicans.  
Republicans like to play golf and side step issues.  Much like your president.
The religious group your referring to is wrongly named ' the religious right'.  They are in fact theocrats who wish to establish a dictatorship.  They have nothing to do with the 'Right' as far as the Constitution goes.  Again much like your president who wants to establish a Obamatatorship (cult of personality).

Seems to me the left has what it wants.  More government and less freedom.  Yet y'all continue to ask for more power.  Whats that CCR lyric again... "And when you ask them, "How much should we give?..Ooh, they only answer More! more! more! yoh"




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hankdog1
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 06:20:37 PM »

the Egyptians wanted democracy.  unfortunately, those who staged a revolution for freedom are not those who will be in power.  in the end, they will probably not even be represented, and can only hope that they well not be forced to live in a regressive system.  so goes democracy.  he who musters the most votes, makes all the rules.
Hmmmm, this sounds like something that happened around here some 235 years ago.  We didn’t get real democracy either.  Instead we got a bunch of representatives that don’t represent the desires of the people.  

Their religious party of representives is called the Brotherhood, ours is called the Republicans.  

Bluebee I don't want to live in a democracy.  If we lived in a democracy your individual rights would be thrown out the window for mob rule.  I don't want my next door neighbor telling me what I can or can't do on my property but that's what a democracy is he gets a few neighbors on board and soon you don't have a leg to stand on.  Indivual rights are the only way to protect each person from the other.  I would hate to live in a country where they could just take my property because they thought it would be a nice place for a new walmart.  Wouldn't you? 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2011, 11:30:12 PM »

>Seems to me the left has what it wants.  More government and less freedom.  Yet y'all continue to ask for more power.

But it's all rhetoric... it's the Republicans (with the help of the Democrats) who passed the "Patriot Act" and took away your constitutional rights.

They may talk like they have different goals, but the Remocrats and the Depublicans will take your money and your freedom.  They may disagree on WHICH rights and they may disagree on the method by which to disguise the taxes, but they all agree on taking your money and your freedom...  I am baffled that they have managed to sell the illusion that they are different.
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 01:09:36 AM »

>Seems to me the left has what it wants.  More government and less freedom.  Yet y'all continue to ask for more power.

But it's all rhetoric... it's the Republicans (with the help of the Democrats) who passed the "Patriot Act" and took away your constitutional rights.
This is why i think pro BIG government people should be pleased.  Also, why i'm not a republican.

They may talk like they have different goals, but the Remocrats and the Depublicans will take your money and your freedom.  They may disagree on WHICH rights and they may disagree on the method by which to disguise the taxes, but they all agree on taking your money and your freedom...  I am baffled that they have managed to sell the illusion that they are different.
I believe the illusion (or Con) is perpetuated for the sole purpose of keeping the people fighting between themselves as apposed to seeing what the gov is doing.  It's a feint and WE are their adversary.  They feed either side as they need to in order to keep the division alive.  

Let me say this...
In my adult life there has NEVER been a candidate in a national election that i have voted FOR. I have only ever voted against the other person.  Maybe the point of all this left/right garbage is to choke out anyone who might try to bend a knee towards the people!  (or just the people, period!)

i have Never been represented.  Chances are, most of you haven't either.  Yet, there ARE people in this forum who want to cede more power to the government.  I can't imagine why...


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T Beek
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2011, 05:15:14 AM »

I think there are many who have always voted for 'the other' guy (or girl) in elections.  That should come as no surprise when we only have "two" to choose from.  We're more of a Banana Republic then we care to admit.  

A good place to start would be to eliminate the 'current' primary system that only serves to void most of the citizens participation right off the bat.  I'd also like to get rid of the Electoral College.  Does anyone think either will be discussed, much less implemented by our elected?  

That would be like giving the key to "We the People' and despite history and rhetoric from all sides, its the last thing those in power really want.  They WANT us to keep fighting with each other.

All this 'expertise' on what a real 'democracy' would look like is laughable and simply allows the perpetual 'illusion' Michael Bush so eloquently reminded us of.  That either side is much different than the other, when truthfully they are very much the same and depend completely on each other for getting themselves reelected and keeping us distracted).

thomas

« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 07:29:52 AM by T Beek » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 11:33:51 AM »

Quote
When in fact, people in many parts of the Middle East have been fighting and 'dieing' (mostly dieing) for freedom from tyrannical rule for a very long time.

true, but they have the same problem that almost all revolutionaries have.  they overthrow the repressive government, but don't have the organization or power to reform the system.  they end up with a more repressive system than they had, and the original revolutionaries are killed or jailed.  pick an overthrow out of a hat.  they are pretty much the same....except of ours.

the revolutions taking place in the Muslim world are a particular danger to freedom and the world.  Islam is both a religion and a form of government.  it does not tolerate other religions, other ideas, or what we consider essential freedoms.  there are A LOT of Muslims who wish for an Islamaist world.  Al Jazeera is a fascinating place to hang out.  surprisingly, it is very open and the mods don't censor comments unless they are way out of hand.  you can engage Muslims on a variety of topics and that exchange can be a real eye opener.

i'd guess that 8 out of 10 of the Muslims from Europe, Persia, and the Arab countries that i have talked to, support violence against non-muslims who "offend" Islam (dutch for instance), agree that Muslim countries do not need to protect those of other beliefs in their countries, and believe that sharia law is the right law for them....even the women will support this.
it should be no surprise that the Islamaist take power.  what will be a surprise to most Americans is what happens inside those countries, and eventually, outside.  we have been indoctrinated that Islam is the "religion of peace" .  they don't see themselves as peaceful people.  they see themselves as protectors and proselytizers for Islam.  whatever it takes.

i know i'm going off in the weeds, but on last thing....

the thinking of the communist leaders and the thinking of the Islamaist leaders is remarkably similar.  we can expect purges in the Egyptian military, and in the original revolutionaries, many of whom were women and were secular.  the Muslim brotherhood is not moderate.  they are very organize and powerful.  they will join with the other Islamaist in the new government and Egypt will eventually look pretty much like Iran.  the Muslim brotherhood was formed along the same lines as AQ.  they wish to destroy Israel, drive the infidels from all Muslim countries, and restore the caliphate.  it is true that Muslims follow different lines of Islam, but it is not true that they will not join together for common goals.  i think the next few years will be interesting.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 03:05:39 PM »

I've known many Muslims over the years, some since the 70's, and several since the 80's and 90's, (both here in the U.S and their homelands), and I must disagree with your rather one sided assessment, which couldn't be further from my own experience, (to me it sounds like Dick Army himself wrote it out, sorry but I just read his latest book, uuhgg rolleyes). 

The internet is clearly assisting w/ the organizing of current revolutions, something that hasn't been available until now, and its uses are still being discovered.  "The times are a (definitely) changing." 

Funding (along with the real possibility of death) has always been an issue w/ past 'people' generated revolutions with little exception.  We must separate 'real' revolutions from those disguised as such and financed by outside forces.

Funny how one could insert Christian where you wrote Muslim/Islam and get nearly the same result.  As cultures we "both promote our own narrow view of the world upon the world with much prejudice." 

Maybe not so funny, after all this is serious stuff, nothing funny here at all.

thomas
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 03:56:17 PM »

I agree with T Beek, I haven’t seen the largest population of Arab Americans (I call them Americans) outside the Middle East trying to “destroy” Detroit or Dearborn yet.  I’ve met some wonderful folks from Lebanon over the years.  Sometimes you have to look beyond the Fox News propaganda to see the truth.  
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 04:11:57 PM »

Quote
I've known many Muslims over the years, some since the 70's, and several since the 80's and 90's, (both here in the U.S and their homelands), and I must disagree with your rather one sided assessment, which couldn't be further from my own experience, (to me it sounds like Dick Army himself wrote it out, sorry but I just read his latest book, uuhgg ). 


i don't think you read very carefully.  i did not say that all Muslims are like that.  most in this country are not.  however, there is a very large and powerful bunch in the middle east, Persia, and Europe, who are.  they are the ones currently taking power in these "revolutions".  they are not peaceful.  unfortunately, another large portion of the Muslim population, while not inherently violent, do support the tenets of Islam which are also not peaceful.  the only Muslim countries that have been peaceful in our lifetime, are those which have been led by secular governments. 
you make a common mistake to equate the religion of Islam with the Islamaist.  Islam as a form of government has never been peaceful.  the Islamaist are coming to power.

Quote
Funny how one could insert Christian where you wrote Muslim/Islam and get nearly the same result.  As cultures we "both promote our own narrow view of the world upon the world with much prejudice."


not so...although there was a time when you could have substituted Catholicism and had the same results.  Christianity and Catholicism are not the same.  that time is past.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 04:55:51 PM »

So that 8 of 10 Muslims you've talked to that support violence against non-Muslim offenders, that's just what, an exaggeration or a miss characterisation?  How many have you talked to to come to this conclusion?  A lot of people listen to your words, so that would be an important fact to include with such a broad statement.

Our Christian 'Culture' is most certainly a Religion and remains our most dominant influence on Governing today (that and money of course) and runs (minimally provides great influence) the mainstream media.  To deny that is incredible to me.  Haven't you seen all the ruckus's regarding the War on Christmas going on right now and the rabid positions some have taken as just a recent example?

When was the last time an 'openly' Free Thinker, AKA Humanist (I suspect Obama is a closet case), was elected to anything in America (there 'is' one Muslim in Congress that I know of).  

Kathyp, I never considered you naive before this (misguided perhaps but not naive), not that I'm reading everything posted by you Wink.

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 05:26:23 PM »

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i'd guess that 8 out of 10 of the Muslims from Europe, Persia, and the Arab countries that i have talked to,

context is everything.  these are my conversations on AJ and my guesstimate, not having kept a log, of those that expressed this sentiment.

how many have i talked to over the  years of conversations on that site?  easily...at least a 100, and that's a conservative guesstimate.  smiley  they are from all over the world. 

Quote
Our Christian 'Culture' is most certainly a Religion and remains our most dominant influence on Governing today (that and money of course) and runs (minimally provides great influence) the mainstream media.  To deny that is incredible to me.  Haven't you seen all the ruckus's regarding the War on Christmas going on right now and the rabid positions some have taken as just a recent example?

When was the last time an 'openly' Free Thinker, AKA Humanist (I suspect Obama is a closet case), was elected to anything in America (there 'is' one Muslim in Congress that I know of). 

Kathyp, I never considered you naive before this (misguided perhaps but not naive), not that I'm reading everything posted by you .

Christianity is not a religion.  religion is a construct of humans.  our nation is based on the judeo/christian 10 commandments.  why?  read the many writings of the founders.  it was not that they wanted a "christian" nation as much as they wanted a limited government.  understanding that all societies need foundational principles, they advocated for a religious nation.  the behavior of man is either moderated by their belief system, or dictated by their government.  if you are going to have a limited government, you must have a strong belief system.  this is historically true as far back in history as we have records.
this is the explanation for the french effort to create a god for the people after they had destroyed the ruling church. 

Quote
When was the last time an 'openly' Free Thinker, AKA Humanist (I suspect Obama is a closet case), was elected to anything in America (there 'is' one Muslim in Congress that I know of).
 

no idea what your point is here.  i would not consider obama a free thinker.  he follows the far left ideology pretty closely and always has. 

Quote
Kathyp, I never considered you naive before this (misguided perhaps but not naive), not that I'm reading everything posted by you .

been called worse.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 06:39:50 PM »

Tbeek
I have trouble getting what you're saying alot of the time. So are you saying these people [the Muslims] are peaceful people? I'm asking because what I've read in the books that they base their religious and governmental beliefs on doesn't sound very peaceful.
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T Beek
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 06:59:13 PM »

You both made my point very well without my help.  Wow?

thomas
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 08:05:24 PM »

What was your point?  Reading back a few posts, and putting some things togather, it was that Christians today are narrow minded like the Muslims of Europe, Persia, and Arabia.  Which is funny, since I don't think that Kathy wears a headscarf, full body robe, or a burkha.  My wife doesn't either.  And they both drive cars (or pickups Wink ).
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