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Author Topic: Wood Bleach Oxalic Acid for Varroa???  (Read 5899 times)
Poppi
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« on: December 04, 2011, 02:47:22 PM »

I can order Oxalic Acid dihydrate from a chemical supply company that is 96.8%...   but I found Savogran's Wood Bleach locally that contains Oxalic Acid dihydrate and says concentrated 95 to 100%...  wondering if anyone here has used a wood bleach product to knock back varroa without any problems?  I don't know if the Savogran contains anything other than the oxalic acid.  I hate doing it but my mite count is not good...

Thanks, John
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 06:26:29 PM »

I have used Savogran's.   It was years ago, but it worked fine.
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 09:27:02 AM »

I can't attest for the brand, but you can go to honeybeeworld.com and look at allen Dick's current diary entry on oxalic treatment.  He started treating and recording results from six hives and kept daily statistics of mite drops.  He has killed a lot of mites and it will be interesting to see if he ever runs out of mites to kill!  Check it out.
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 12:45:16 PM »

Robo...   thanks, that is what I'll try as a trickle...  actually the bees are still bringing in small quantities of pollen and today is almost 70 F...  still have some brood...  I watched a few vids from Europe and most were treating the hives after they clustered...   brood rearing was not happening or at it's lowest point which makes sense to me.  Mine are not clustering yet, the lowest temp so far has been nighttime 28 F.  I have powder sugared their little butts to death and the mite drop still increases...  and I've seen some DWV...  maybe 8 or ten that were thrown out of the hive.   This is not a good thing...  It is a single deep with good stores and the bees seem ok when I open the hive but I would estimate 15 to 20,000 bees..   I also tried ApiLife Var a month ago and the results were no change in mite drop...  that's why I went to PS if for no other reason than to knock down the mite count..   I'm still getting 100 in a 24 hour period...  This was a July NUC that never wanted to go up into the second brood box...  so I left them in one...  I don't want to lose them...


Vance G...  thanks for the link.  I went there and will read the info this evening...  I have read more on Varroa this year than I think the total reading I did when I was in college...  LOL!!   I have sided with the folks that feel the best way is to work toward mite resistance...  I don't like using chems and I don't want to go beyond Oxalic acid but between a rock and a hard spot...  gotta do what I can today...

Thanks again, Smiley   John
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 01:07:11 PM »

I have never trickled, just vaporized.  Waiting for them to be broodless is a tough call. By the time they are broodless, it might not matter.  It is the bees being born now that will ride through the winter.  If you have an epidemic of varroa, the chances of having sufficient healthy winter bees is pretty low.   I was in a similar predicament when I first used OA.   I chose to vaporize once a week for three weeks.   After that initial round,  just one vaporizing in the spring was all I did for the next 2 years before going treatment free.


I wish you luck...
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 03:07:18 PM »

Waiting for them to be broodless is a tough call. By the time they are broodless, it might not matter. 

I understand that OA is best used when broodless, but I don't think my bees are ever completely broodless and if they are, I'm missing the window.  I'm going into winter with a mite load and am worried I will start losing a lot of hives as the temperature continues to drop (down three so far) and their immune systems become more and more compromised.

Is it a mistaken philosophy to use OA under these conditions to kill off the phoretic mites that are sucking the life out of my bees?  I know this isn't going to make any newly hatched bees healthier, but won't it still help to get rid of the majority of the varroa?

Nights are in the 30s and daytime temps are about as cold as they're going to get (short of a snowstorm), so I've scheduled tomorrow to do my drips.
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 04:24:01 PM »

Robo,

With all I've read, trickle method seems to be preferred over vaporizing...  maybe because it's easier don't know...   I am going to do the hive later this week.  I still see some pale varroa on the sticky board...  some brood is still emerging.  I would think this late that brood rearing is very low.

You mentioned vaporizing in the spring...  it's my understanding varroa counts and mite reproduction is at it's lowest point in the spring and not until August/September does the mite count tend to explode...   that's why I thought is was best to treat just before the winter to knock down the varroa so the bees go into winter with lower counts.  Without brood or drones the varroa don't reproduce again until brood raising starts.   I know that all this is dependent on where you are located, the climate and environment where the bees are kept.   I'm new at this, that is why I'm asking questions and reading as much as I can..  at least I'm not charging into something totally blind...   I hope..  Smiley    But if you have gone treatment free, you must have done something right...   There seems to be no one right way and that is what is puzzling...    John
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 04:27:02 PM »

Is it a mistaken philosophy to use OA under these conditions to kill off the phoretic mites that are sucking the life out of my bees?  I know this isn't going to make any newly hatched bees healthier, but won't it still help to get rid of the majority of the varroa?

If you have a heavy mite load, I believe the earlier you treat the better.  I just don't know how well OA drip gets distributed when the bees aren't clustered.  OA drip I believe is a little more damaging to the bees and it is not recommended to apply more than once,  so that makes it a little more risky as well if it doesn't go well.  Vaporizing goes everywhere in the hive when done right.

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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 04:29:07 PM »

Thanks Robo   I will look into vaporizing before I do anything...   but I think at this point time is short...

Thanks again,  John
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 04:34:34 PM »

With all I've read, trickle method seems to be preferred over vaporizing...
Could be, it has been many years since I have used it, but vaporizing was pretty straight forward and doesn't require any conversions/measuring or, more importantly in my case,  opening up the hive and disturbing the bees.

Quote
You mentioned vaporizing in the spring...  it's my understanding varroa counts and mite reproduction is at it's lowest point in the spring and not until August/September does the mite count tend to explode...  

Correct but,  I don't remember the exact number, each mite in the spring will reproduce and equal something like 200-400 mites in the fall.   So I found the best way to eliminate the explosion was to eliminate the source in the spring.  If you wait to the fall the explosion of mites is damaging your colony.  You want to prevent the explosion.


Quote
  There seems to be no one right way and that is what is puzzling...    John

Welcome to the world of beekeeping smiley
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 05:18:34 PM »

.
If you have heavy load of mites, take brood frames off and trickle.

If it destroyes too much, use thymol or formic acid.

You may too give all brood into one hive to be emerged. Then handle them with thymol or formic acid.  that takes 3 weeks.

Hives, brood takena way, trickle them.



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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 06:06:39 PM »

Finski...  Hi...    thanks for responding...   You mentioned before about removing brood frames and I understand but what do you think about trickling 5 ml between each frame with bees.  I know this will not take care of mites in capped cells but I have seen this done on some European videos.

What do you think about vaporizing...  I read trickle is best but best results are when the hive is broodless.  Vaporizing is less harmful to bees because they do not eat the OA with the sugar syrup.

Oh by the way you may have seen this but it is interesting about small cell and varroa...

Evaluation of Small-Cell Combs for Control of Varroa Mites in New York Honey Bees - CORNELL UNIVERSITY -- http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/211868.html

"IMPACT: 2008-10-01 TO 2009-09-30 The work supported by the grant has now shown conclusively that providing honey bee colonies with frames of small-cell (4.9 mm) combs does not depress the reproduction of Varroa mites relative to giving colonies frames of standard-cell (5.4 mm) combs. These results match those of parallel investigations on this topic that were conducted independently in Georgia and Florida. It seems clear, therefore, that despite much interest by and discussion among beekeepers in using small-cell combs to control the nites without chemical, this approach is ineffective. The studies that have been supported by this grant will be reported through a publication in a peer-reviewed scientific journal (Apidologie) and a beekeepers' magazine (Bee Culture).

John
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 11:59:45 AM »

.
Yes that seam.

Original advice is that to full box wintering bees give maximum 40 ml.
4 ml per seam, full of bees.
To 2-box wintering hive give max 50 ml and 5 ml into each seam. You cannot see them but they are there. Don't split  2-hive. It will not succeed.

I know one professional guy in my country who uses small cells. He has Elgon bees.
i bought those but alone they are impossible to keep pure among Italian and Carniolan colonies.

There much new researches which tell that small cell does not work.
You need to have a bee stock  which identyfye a mite as enemy.
It is said that in France there is such a stock. One queen's price is about 8000 US dollars.
I have hear that they are really angry.

Trickling is simple and safer to the  beekeeper than  zasifying.

.
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 04:07:18 PM »

Finski,

I purchased the oxalic acid today...   I will trickle on Friday like you said...  4 ml between each frame for a single deep..   the weather here is hard to predict..  today is 26 C...   Friday will be 12 to 13 C but a nice day...

Thanks for your input,  John

Too much money for a queen for a hobby beekeeper!!   I have heard of VSH (varroa sensitive hygenic) queens here in the US but I also hear this is a resessive gene so they must be continually replaced with new stock.  I think you are correct, that the best way is to have stock that will take care of varroa without help from the beekeeper...  maybe someday...
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 05:18:18 PM »


that the best way is to have stock that will take care of varroa without help from the beekeeper...  maybe someday...

write to Santa.

Varroa has its evolution too. It spreads all the time better than ever.
Varroa  is going through the Africa now. Not a sign that bees are going to  hit back.
Africa is 3 times as big as Europe. USA is as big as Sahara sand desert.

Many years ago natural beekeepers reported that honeybees of South Africa is recovering.
Not at least according official information. Further more they have a pirate bee which makes honeybees to their slaves.
Read more about Apis mellifera capensis.
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 07:34:31 PM »

During all my reading about oxalic acid and varroa I read somewhere that the African honeybee kept varroa under control...  but don't know the date of the article...   makes no difference if African honeybees take care of varroa, that does me no good...  until bees develope some kind of resistance the fight will go on...   for now it seems varroa is winning the fight...  and it has help with the viruses it transmits.  So I will use the least toxic/invasive treatment I can that has reliable efficacy with the least damage to the colony.

Oxalic acid is my next step because so far powdered sugar has been worthless and thymol did not do much better.  I followed directions exactly...   I will be lucky if this hive survives, but I will try...  even if it does the colony will be slow to recover..  but I have bees coming to start two more hives this spring...

John
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2011, 01:52:58 AM »


Oxalic acid is my next step because so far powdered sugar has been worthless and thymol did not do much better.  I followed directions exactly...   

something wrong in your directions or  you have noticed something.

Thymol is splended stuff to kill mites, but it needs 3 weeks treatment so that no mites have opportunity to hidden under brood capps. A day  temp must be over 15 C. I suppose that mesh floor should be closed then. I do not have mesh floors.

Here thymol is in commercial pads. When beekeepers give winter food, one or two pad are on upper frame bars.  That is only what you need to do.  1 year old pads do not work properly any more.

Another company  made too light pads and it did not affect on mites. It happened this year.

. I have 30 litres formic acid. I will use it in summer and oxalic in winter.

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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2011, 07:23:31 PM »

Finski,  I used ApiLife Var (Thymol)  and followed directions exactly and it was a 3 week treatment.  The temperature was within the recommended range.  I don't know why it didn't work but the mite count did not go down.  I will do Oxalic drip tomorrow...  Temps are 0 C for low and 12 to 13 C for high.  I will drip in the morning before bees get too active.

John
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 09:05:40 AM »

.
At least you see how much you have free mites.

Continuous mite drop may be derived from one thing. Ded mites have dropped into empty cells and bees find then slowly and drop down.
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 08:21:41 PM »

Isn't wood bleach un-natural. Isn't a pollution to put in hive!
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2011, 02:51:58 AM »

>Isn't wood bleach un-natural. Isn't a pollution to put in hive!

It depends on your goal I guess.  If the goal is to have honey that is not contaminated, there is already oxalic acid in the honey.  But if you goal is a healthy ecology in the bee hive you will kill off most of the beneficial microbes in the hive with the dramatic shift in pH.  if you goal is to have bees that can live with the mites, you will instead be breeding bees that can't live without treatments and mites that can't survive unless they outbreed the die off from oxalic acid.  In other words super mites and wimpy bees.

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#notreatments
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#breeding

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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2011, 09:28:32 AM »

.
I just read a research where it was mentioned that  about140 hard chemicals have tested to varroa. Oxalic acid is number one when we talk about harmless. Many vegetables have 0,3-0.5% oxalix acid (lettuce, carrot). 

Beekeeping is  not natural if "natural" is so important. No domestic animal live naturally.

If we look for example young birds, 50% will be dead in few weeks when they leave the nest

But if you want to kill a pest like varroa mite, it is unrealistict to wait that it has no affect on bees but if only kills mites.

Natural way is that let the mite kill the hive. Perhaps you loose 300 dollars but at least  they are natural dollars.

.
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2011, 04:02:58 PM »

Shelly...   believe me I don't like using OA to treat the bees, but I don't want to lose the colony and none of the "softer" stuff works...  OA is the next step...  I did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions before settling on OA.  Your question about wood bleach...  if you aren't careful which product you purchase, you can get wood bleach (Oxalic Acid) at lower percentages with other "fillers" in with the acid.  The product I purchased is made by Savogran and others have used it for OA treatments.  Also if you pull up the MSDS on their OA you will see it is 95 to 100% OA and no other ingredients.

I'm sure most agree the long term solution to Varroa are bees that control the mite and keep it at acceptable levels or eliminate it all together...  however, what I am seeing for me is my medium size colony is losing the battle.  So I'm treating...  my mite count is 75 to 100 every 24 hours and I have seen some deformed wing virus.  It may be too little too late but I'm gonna try...  John
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 09:12:12 AM »

 Hello

 I made another title on the application of oxalic acid under the share.

 I heard it was banned in Turkey, the United States oxalic acid.

 Writings, I understand that this practice is not prohibited.

 I use dihitrat oxalic acid, 96.6% purity.

 I mentioned earlier, I'm doing the apparatuses of oxalic acid vapor application developed with its own.

 I get very good results.

 Will close the application without disturbing the colony.

 winter bees that are better layout.

 Oxalic acid vapor, certainly does not disturb the bee.

 What do you do with you the process of evaporation?
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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 10:23:12 AM »

Hello

 I made another title on the application of oxalic acid under the share.

 I heard it was banned in Turkey, the United States oxalic acid.

 Writings, I understand that this practice is not prohibited.

 I use dihitrat oxalic acid, 96.6% purity.

 I mentioned earlier, I'm doing the apparatuses of oxalic acid vapor application developed with its own.

 I get very good results.

 Will close the application without disturbing the colony.

 winter bees that are better layout.

 Oxalic acid vapor, certainly does not disturb the bee.

 What do you do with you the process of evaporation?


I think banned is not the correct term.   In the USA it is not registered as an approved treatment.   It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the OA but more likely due to $$$.   It takes a lot of money to get a product registered,  and since there is no way for someone to control the sale of a common substance like OA,  no way to get a return on the investment of registering.

One common way of treating is the use of an electric vaporizer.    2 grams and then keep hive sealed for 15 minutes.
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 11:21:25 AM »

The latest letter I received from the State Dept of Ag stated that the use of OA is actually illegal to use on bees here.

Scott
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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 11:39:15 AM »

The latest letter I received from the State Dept of Ag stated that the use of OA is actually illegal to use on bees here.

Scott

Good thing you can still use it on your equipment though....
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« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 12:57:52 PM »


Yup, just bleached some frames Sunday.
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« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 06:43:27 PM »

Yep V...K9   I bleached mine last week and so far I like the looks...  Smiley

anyway, in just a week (actually 5 days), the mite drop has gone from 75 to 100/24 hrs to less than 25 in 24 hours...  I'm not seeing the pale mites anymore and the hive looks good but time will tell...  I hope it wasn't too little too late.

John
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2011, 03:13:29 PM »

Hello

 I made another title on the application of oxalic acid under the share.

 I heard it was banned in Turkey, the United States oxalic acid.

 Writings, I understand that this practice is not prohibited.

 I use dihitrat oxalic acid, 96.6% purity.

 I mentioned earlier, I'm doing the apparatuses of oxalic acid vapor application developed with its own.

 I get very good results.

 Will close the application without disturbing the colony.

 winter bees that are better layout.

 Oxalic acid vapor, certainly does not disturb the bee.

 What do you do with you the process of evaporation?


I think banned is not the correct term.   In the USA it is not registered as an approved treatment.   It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the OA but more likely due to $$$.   It takes a lot of money to get a product registered,  and since there is no way for someone to control the sale of a common substance like OA,  no way to get a return on the investment of registering.

One common way of treating is the use of an electric vaporizer.    2 grams and then keep hive sealed for 15 minutes.
Oxalic acid is prohibited in the United States, Turkey, said the owner of a company engaged in pharmaceutical manufacturing.

 Of course, I did not believe.

 The reason to say so, my production of oxalic acid evaporation of a writing apparatus, after the publication of the magazine was a member of apimondia.

 Commercial concern.

 Using propane as a heat source.

 Each hive takes about two minutes for the application.

 Unaffected by the heat of vaporization is out for the bees.

 He stands so open all the hive entrances.

 Thank you for informing about the forbidden.
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