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Author Topic: "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose" The more things change.......  (Read 1586 times)
T Beek
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« on: December 04, 2011, 08:18:05 AM »

Today's battles (divisiveness among people) are not new, they've been going on for thousands of years, generally initiated by those in positions of great power.  But in those thousands of years great advancements have been made by collectives of people willing to fight and die for freedom, even when that freedom is someting vague and unimaginable.


150 years ago Lincoln said these words to Congress;

"It is assumed that labor is available in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor.  This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them, and drive them to it without their consent.  Having proceeded thus far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves.  And further it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life."

"Now, there is no such relationship between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless."

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.  Capital is only the fruit of labor, and never could have existed if labor had not first existed.  Labor is superior of capital and deserves much the higher consideration."

As delivered to Congress by A Lincoln (still my favorite Republican) 150 years ago yesterday.

Reminds me of a statement from Elizabeth Warren a few weeks ago.  "There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own.  Nobody."

thomas
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 05:53:28 PM »

Quote
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.  Capital is only the fruit of labor, and never could have existed if labor had not first existed.  Labor is superior of capital and deserves much the higher consideration."

absolutely true, although i can't help but wonder if many don't misread the meaning.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 04:26:43 AM »

kathyp and tbeek find common ground?  I knew it all along Wink

Apparently there are many who not only misunderstand these words (perhaps they don't read history, or nothing but the sports pages grin), but there are also those who desperately try to cover these words up and/or deny them (or twist them so the meaning is lost).  

Its happening today right under our noses (well, perhaps under 'some' noses Wink).

thomas
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 01:57:05 PM by T Beek » Logged

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hankdog1
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 05:17:30 PM »

Lincoln is the last man I would use quotes from about freedom. 

You will take possession by military force, of the printing establishments of the New York World and Journal of Commerce . . . and prohibit any further publication thereof . . . You are therefore commanded forthwith to arrest and imprison . . . The editors, proprietors and publishers of the aforementioned newspapers. (Order of Abraham Lincoln to General John Dix, May 18, 1864)
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AllenF
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 06:42:30 PM »

I did not know that.
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 06:46:43 PM »

Quote
Lincoln is the last man I would use quotes from about freedom. 


he pretty much shredded the constitution.  the only reason he's remembered as a great prez is because the north won.  if not for that, he would have gone down as our first near dictator.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hankdog1
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 07:38:52 PM »

Kathy glad to see I'm not the only one who see him for what he was.  The more I learn about the man it's no wonder war broke out.  He makes what Obama is doing look like child's play.
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 08:14:37 PM »

the difference between Lincoln and Obama is intent.  Lincoln didn't want to fundamentally change the country/constitution.  what he did was for the sake of expediency to attack what he saw as an immediate problem.  what obama is doing is intended to change what we are for the long run.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 09:16:24 PM »

what obama is doing is intended to change what we are for the long run.
applause applause applause
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 09:39:04 PM »

why doesn't it surprise me that you would clap for that?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hankdog1
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 03:22:23 PM »

Kathy I think if he hadn't got shot you would probably have a different opinion on that.  I do honestly think he was looking for change in the long run just wasn't able to get around to it.

Bluebee as for the change Obama brings America was suppost to be about freedeom and liberty both of which some of us don't beleave should be thrown away.  There are all kinds of stupid laws that restrict my freedoms and liberty and I sure as heck don't want anyone Republican or Democrat making laws that should be choices.  Remember we live and die by the choices we make so why would you want a select few make those choices for you?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 03:44:26 PM »

Hankdog, I agree with you, I don’t want the politicians making choices for me at all.  I want to get rid of them ALL and switch to real democracy.  Vote on the issues directly via internet and remove congress. Unfortunately many on here seem to think we the people are too dumb to make our own decisions.  They think these clowns called representatives do a better job.

Hankdog, isn’t it the Republicans that are trying to take away your rights to due process in that new bill you are concerned about:  http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,35460.0.html.  Isn’t it Obama that says he’s going to veto it if they do?
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hankdog1
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 04:15:57 PM »

Bluebee it's both sides wanting to get rid of due process  remember it passed the senate so democrats voted for it too.  As for getting rid of congress that's not what needs to be done.  There are times when congress can come in handy like if we are ever invaded.  But a wise person once said "the government that governs the least governs the best."  Should I have to wear a seatbelt just because the government says I have too?  May make me safer driving down the road but in the end it's really up to the person.  Better yet I can't smoke cannabis which is much safer then alcohol but I can drink Jack Daniels until my liver turns to stone.  They have turned into our parents deciding what's right and what's wrong for adults who can make up their own minds.  I don't know about you but my parents weren't perfect.
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T Beek
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 04:46:45 AM »

Well I'll admit there's a few members (too few) of Congress who'd likely pick up a gun if we were 'invaded' (by whom?) but most would more than likely run and cry like babies if they actually had to work/fight for the Country rather than their benefactors, much less pick up a gun and be willing to kill someone, whether a bad guy or not.  Most members are blowhards and beholding to the wizards rolleyes, little more.

Have anyone of you looked at Americanselect.org yet?  It may well be our future.......some time.

I thought the Patriot Act did a pretty good job of eliminating due process.

thomas
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:09:29 AM by T Beek » Logged

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hankdog1
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 09:53:36 AM »

Americanselect.org is just a pipe dream.  Paul has said he wouldn't run on a 3rd party ticket because your shut out of the debates.  We are deadlocked in a 2 party system until one or both parties tick people off to the point they say no more.  Not something I see happening anytime soon.
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T Beek
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 02:37:24 PM »

You mean like the tea party and OWS right?  Or are you implying something more sinister?

thomas
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hankdog1
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 02:44:28 PM »

Well you may see the Tea Party and or OWS do it but it seems as though people are happy just to be embraced by one party or another.  Do I honestly think republicans represent the Tea Party heck no but they are doing a  pretty good job of making it look that way.  Same thing goes for OWS and the Democrats.  In the end it's all just a bunch of political posturing and people need to reject and eject both parties and come back to some from of sanity.  We may never see it if HR 1540 passes as us free thinkers that don't fit in the square or round holes will be rounded up and labeled at terrorists.  Those of you who say that no they won't they can't do that to American citizens.  Take a look at what they did with thousands of American citizens of Japanese decent back in the 40's.
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T Beek
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 03:09:43 PM »

I believe our Country's founders and their followers were once called terrorists by the English.

thomas
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