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Author Topic: Pollen Patties in Winter?  (Read 7825 times)
Stone
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« on: November 25, 2011, 09:44:24 PM »

Is this a good idea?  In another thread, someone mentioned that he will be feeding his bees pollen patties soon. I had always thought this should be done in spring to boost brood production, and during late summer or fall dearths.  What would be the reason to feed bees pollen in winter? 

Dadant has a "winter pattie" with only 3% protein which seems like a good idea.  I'll be ordering some of those, but wouldn't pollen patties in winter encourage brood rearing when you wouldn't want it?  Would like to know your thoughts.....
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Shanevrr
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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 11:12:34 PM »

depending on where you live they can continue to raise brood even when temps drop, Im feeding patties right now, you should have pollen stores through winter, 4 to 6 frames here.  If your not sure, check stores, if have dont it give it to them.  its hard to get them to take it when to cold so the earlier the better.  May be to late for ya up there.  Raising brood is a good thing which will give you winter bees.  i still have brood but its been warm
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 11:29:52 PM by Shanevrr » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 12:57:51 AM »

My opinion would be that your location would determine whether feeding pollen patties at this time of year is a good or bad idea. 

In the north where it is now getting to cold for forage flights (there is nothing to forage on if it were warm enough) and much colder weather coming I would think it would be a bad idea.  Main reason being if they get to much brood under production and a serious cold snap rolls in they could easily freeze out desperately trying to keep the brood warm, consuming all the available honey within reach.  Another reason it would not be a good idea is that they may consume to much of their winter stores and starve later.  If they were short on pollen stores it should have been feed already.  If they had plenty of pollen available in the fall before foraging activity ceased then no substitute is needed anyway.

If you are in the south where it remains warm enough for brood production but forage is not available or it is warm enough that freezing out is not a real threat but its to cold for any productive forage flights then I see no harm in feeding.  Anytime you can encourage rearing of young bees to support the winter cluster without threatening the health of the colony it would be of benefit.

Another issue to be aware of is that brood rearing requires an ample amount of water, if they start rearing g brood and dont have enough water, the brood will die, and brood disease is likely going to be a result.  Many believe condensation is the enemy in winter.  Is it really?
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rdy-b
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 02:27:57 AM »

 those patties at 3% arent going to give you a explosion of brood--they are designed as a emergency feeding for light hives - they are basically a carbohydrate patty with a little protein -they are inspired by the mountain camp method of dry sugar feeding that has become so popular-it all depends what your needs are-for brood rearing there are many patties off the shelf that run 12%-19% protein-these are good for build up- whether to increase population going into winter-or a boost at spring to increase population before the flow--so if you just want to give them some healthy stores to hedge your bets for winter survival they should do you well--RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 02:45:42 AM »

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Winter patties are mixing beekeepers heads.

Lack on pollen tells that winter is coming. Prepare for winter rest.

In cluster bees eate some amount pollen. Poo is full on empty pollen cells.Honey has only energy and pollen has other nutritiens..

Cluster goes over winter without pollen but it is not able to start brooding before they get pollen from nature.

 Bees need winter rest. So they are in better condition than bees which beekeeper has disturbed the whole winter with his emergency operations.

It is very different when hives are in California on in New York. It is different too if hives are 1000 / hectare or 5 per hectare. Have you in December 20C day temp or 0C.

I start pollen feeding in spring about 3-4 weeks before willow starts blooming.
When new bees emerge, they get new fresh pollen from nature and they will grow to good brood feeders.

If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalkbrood then.

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T Beek
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 11:08:06 AM »

Hey thanks Finski.  Excellent explantion and insight cool

thomas
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Finski
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 04:01:25 PM »

Hey thanks Finski.  Excellent explantion and insight cool

thomas

Kiitos Thomas!
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rdy-b
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 07:03:26 PM »

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Winter patties are mixing beekeepers heads.

Lack on pollen tells that winter is coming. Prepare for winter rest.

In cluster bees eate some amount pollen. Poo is full on empty pollen cells.Honey has only energy and pollen has other nutritiens..

Cluster goes over winter without pollen but it is not able to start brooding before they get pollen from nature.

 Bees need winter rest. So they are in better condition than bees which beekeeper has disturbed the whole winter with his emergency operations.

It is very different when hives are in California on in New York. It is different too if hives are 1000 / hectare or 5 per hectare. Have you in December 20C day temp or 0C.

I start pollen feeding in spring about 3-4 weeks before willow starts blooming.
When new bees emerge, they get new fresh pollen from nature and they will grow to good brood feeders.

If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalkbrood then.


  we would never feed that winter paty in california -its all sugar-no pollen in poo-- cheesy RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 09:26:52 AM »

no pollen  in poo cheesy RDY-B

1) you have not winter in California
2) you have too much bees in california. Bees do not learn what  is flower
3) pollen takes 4 hours to melt in rectum. You must wake up earlier in the morning to study poo.


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rdy-b
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 04:20:00 PM »

**If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalk-brood then.**

 You need to change the PH of your mix- cool  (use citric acid crystals)--also to eliminate your NOSEMA problem you need to add
 secrete OAK tannin-oak tannin poses static charge and repel pathogen and also make intestine lining leathery so pathogen
 can not penetrate--your bees must be strong with high protein reserves in body fat to make it through long sleep
the bees are what they eat--full-of poo or not-- :loll:  RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2011, 04:46:41 PM »

**If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalk-brood then.**

 You need to change the PH of your mix- cool  (use citric acid crystals)--also to eliminate your NOSEMA problem you need to add
 secrete OAK tannin-oak tannin poses static charge and repel pathogen and also make intestine lining leathery so pathogen
 can not penetrate--your bees must be strong with high protein reserves in body fat to make it through long sleep
the bees are what they eat--full-of poo or not-- :loll:  RDY-B


that has nothing to do with the fact that bees need water to make larva milk.

I have said nothing about my nosema.

You just don't understand what I am writing.  You have permanent summer there.

Poo in they arse becomes from the fact that bees are all the time in the hive 5-6 months and cannot come out. I ment only with that , that bees love to eate pollen during long winter.
When I start in Spring patty feeding, bees eate  a huge amount protein even if they do not have yet brood. It tells too that bees need protein, vitamins etc during winter.
But not in he form of patty.
We here cannot do nothing to bees before cleansing flight. If you disturb them, they come out to die on snow.

Small cluster will be filled sooner because they must work harder to keep the heat.

59 years beekeeping and 20 years patty feeding .. Difficult to make better. ...

I have taken recipes from US laboratory researches and  patty works fine.


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rdy-b
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2011, 07:04:23 PM »

**I have said nothing about my nosema.**
 no not in this post-but i follow your posts and you have brought this to light many times

**You have permanent summer there.**
 then how is it possible for me to raise the long lived winter bees that bring me to first bloom

 yes its a matter of timing for you and your snow bond bees-However feeding pollen supplement in
 late summer at a heavy rate will give you copious amounts of brood-of which your hives will be populated with
long lived winter bees-we all know it is very easy to bring large hives through winter-its the small ones that perish

 I think we have to look at what is being feed-it makes a big difference -all sub is not created equal-what the poster is asking about is a patty that is 97% sugar-If you are going to explore pollen supplement -or emergency feeding-you need to learn what these mean in benefit for the circumstance at hand-we cant compare how the sub you are feeding at any given time to what the poster is asking about-here is what the manufacture has to say about there product----


**Dadant winter patties. For those colonies running light on stores and those needing to feed in emergency situations we at Dadant have come out with winter patties.  These carbohydrate patties contain Honey Bee Healthy and Mega Bee and run around 3% protein.   3-4 patties can be fed at a time when using standard 10 frame equipment.  It is advised to use a 2 inch spacer rim (B10004) on top of the brood chambers allowing room for the bees to get up and around the patties for easier consumption.  Can be fed throughout the winter months and into early spring when warm enough to open the hive.  Sold in 40 lb. boxes.**

 i think that these could save alot of keepers that are caught with light hives from a bad experience--
 the part that i dont like about these patties are that you are paying a premium price for basically sugar--however i believe that the added supplements will aid in consumption rate--  Wink  RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 07:34:33 PM »

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I suppose that your 3% winter protein meening is to help hives over short winter that CDD does not burst in the hive. Latest knowledge is that  hives are  active in a warm weather and try to find food. They have brood and larva feeding takes nutrients from bee body  if they do not get pollen. 

you have thousands of hives in small areas and hives do not get there food.

USA is only country which has CCD. It is (probably) only country which moves so much hives into small areas to over winter.
...........
I have nosema problems but nosema makes its dirty job  before I start the patty feeding. I see it when some hives do not start to eate patty. Nosema has spoiled bees gut and they cannot feed larvae. Later, when I give a frame of emerging bees from strong healthy hive, thy get new nurser bees and brood rearing starts.

Genetics of  beestock has something to do with that problem too. Some have better resistancy than others.

  llllllllll

I feed patty 2 months. April has not much pollen sources. In May almost only pollen source is willow. Willow as protein source is light. It has only 15% raw protein.
At the end  of May  a vast variety of plants are in bloom and bees get balanced pollen mixture. Then they stop patty eating

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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 08:45:57 PM »

**I suppose that your 3% winter protein meaning is to help hives over short winter that CDD does not burst in the hive**
 if you are feeding the 3% winter patty as a EMERGENCY feed because your hive is light on stores then it also is likely that your bees are protein deficient -small amount of protein will restore deficacy-but at the same time it is such a small amount -it wont overload the bees gut-bee can deal with this small amount even if snow bound

** you have thousands of hives in small areas and hives do not get there food.**
they dont have adequate forage ---because its WINTER-HELLO FINSKI ITS WINTER -there is no bloom--  cheesy

 ** nosema makes its dirty job  before I start the patty feeding.**
 If you feed sub BEFORE your hive makes its BROOD NEST TURN from sumer bees to long lived winter bees
your bees will be rich with protein enriched body fat and hypngernal glands will be full of the best quality
 bee milk which will be passed through out the colony at its need-also if you take this time and treat with
a natural product -you have the benefit of AVOIDING the nosema that comes at winters end-your bees are weakened from the STRESS of a long winter-(I have said before you need strong bees for winters sleep) if bees go into winter protein deprived they are going to suffer many perils-here is a link to one of many products that have the oak tannin

http://www.nozevit.com/Product%20Info.htm   

** I feed patty 2 months. April has not much pollen sources**
 this is good for you-but your bees must be in fit condition in order for this to benefit-otherwise they wont even consume the protein they need --- Smiley RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 08:21:38 AM »

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I read about vitellogenin. It exist in vast group of animal which make eggs. It is female protein.

In bees  it exist in wintering bees but not in them when they emerge. Bees accumulate protein precursor to their head for winter. Probably it is a protein reserve and used when cluster has no contact to pollen stores.  Otherwise they use pollen as protein resource.

That is a theoretical meaning to give protein during winter.  But I think that it is some kind of emergency food. It is not needed before these days.
I try to put 2 pollen frames for winter cluster. I situate them so that bees use it in early spring.

Red clover is here amost only pollen source  in Autumn. It blooms in Autumn if  it has bee cut in July.

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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2011, 02:08:50 PM »

 yes yes-the vitillogen is stored in body fat-the protein stored in head is related to hypogernal gland
bee milk is feed to emerging bees as well as protein starved forage bees when colony needs forage bee
 to rejuvenate for house duties -it is a fail safe for colony survival--

 if your bees are coming off of a seasonal honey flow before brood nest turn -those bees are depleted from
 these reserves and need to be recharged for the best wintering bee possible-- Wink  RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 03:06:17 PM »

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To rear winter bees they have special system. A strong hive has almost one box full of pollen when blooming ceases. After that Italian bees consume almost the whole that pollen store to make winter bees. A month later pollen store is gone.  Carniolan leaves more pollen over winter and with that it gets a fast spring build up.

I  use 3 brood box system. At the end of main yield the lowest box has pollen. Second and third have  brood.  When yield is over, I reduce the en trance. The queen descend to the  lowest  box and they start to consume pollen stores.

When I feed spring patty  to Italians, their build up is as fast as Carniolans'.

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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 04:24:49 PM »

**I  use 3 brood box system. At the end of main yield the lowest box has pollen.**

 sounds good -but what if the bottom box has no pollen
 
 If i run triple deep i get brood and honey in all 3 boxes--less honey for harvest -run two chamber-or even single
 harvest large yield and replace sticky box for brood expansion --no pollen box-it dose not always get full--RDY-B
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2011, 04:47:59 PM »

**I  use 3 brood box system. At the end of main yield the lowest box has pollen.**

 sounds good -but what if the bottom box has no pollen
 
 If i run triple deep i get brood and honey in all 3 boxes--less honey for harvest -run two chamber-or even single
 harvest large yield and replace sticky box for brood expansion --no pollen box-it dose not always get full--RDY-B

i move the hives to such places that they have pollen and honey


let's look my balance hive. It was medium size case but on good, unlimited  pastures.

The hive had 5 langstroths + 3 mediums. It drew 4 box of foundations. It brught honey 140 kg in 5 weeks. When we notice the drawn foundations, one langstrot box needs 6-8 kg honey to draw combs.   4 x 6 =24 more to 140 kg.


Yes, they collect pollen every year. They get honey too every year. The bigger hive the biger yield.
But good yield comes from good pastures.

The balance hive brought during a best week every day 7 kg . 7x7=49 kg  in one week. They had no larvae  durint that week.

What was the hive density? Two hives and 7 hectares canola, fire weeds, aphid honey and what ever.  We had a special weather in last summer.

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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2011, 06:32:08 PM »

**The balance hive brought during a best week every day 7 kg . 7x7=49 kg  in one week.**

 with that yield you can draw wax and fill a deep in one week-thats very cool --need more weeks like that one EHH- Wink

 **  What was the hive density? Two hives and 7 hectares canola, fire weeds, aphid honey and what ever.  We had a special weather in last summer.**

 7 hectare =17 acres--your forage can support many more hives than two per 17 acres--minimum 8 hives
 if it where me i would do a drop every mile at 30 hives--RDY-B
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