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Author Topic: Pollen Patties in Winter?  (Read 8501 times)
Finski
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« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2011, 10:42:00 PM »

.
De Groot revieled bees' need of  amino acids  in the year  1953.
Job was so well done that information works 60 years later.

Australians have made good industrial level researches about pollen and about  bee nutrition during last 15 years.

It seems that who ever can use "scientific beekeeper" title and other believe that "really !".

We have found just now some "false medician dortors" in our country.
You better find your "false beekeeping doctors" from your country  Lips Sealed

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rdy-b
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« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2011, 12:58:48 AM »

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Winter patties are mixing beekeepers heads.

Lack on pollen tells that winter is coming. Prepare for winter rest.

In cluster bees eate some amount pollen. Poo is full on empty pollen cells.Honey has only energy and pollen has other nutritiens..

Cluster goes over winter without pollen but it is not able to start brooding before they get pollen from nature.

 Bees need winter rest. So they are in better condition than bees which beekeeper has disturbed the whole winter with his emergency operations.

It is very different when hives are in California on in New York. It is different too if hives are 1000 / hectare or 5 per hectare. Have you in December 20C day temp or 0C.

I start pollen feeding in spring about 3-4 weeks before willow starts blooming.
When new bees emerge, they get new fresh pollen from nature and they will grow to good brood feeders.

If snow covers the ground and if I feed pollen or pollen patty, bees become sick. They need lots of drinking water to use patty. They get a long lasting chalk-brood then.


Quote
That is real children fairy-tales. It is more poetry than science.

If you read wikipedia, it says it better.

Vitellogening exist in all animals which produce eggs. birds, fishes, nematodes....It it precursor of protein. Nothing more.

 You get a scientific research into you hands and you deliver fairy-tales.
That is big  waste.

.
********

Put into google "amino acids of vitellogenin" , you get some idea what the stuff is
                                                                                                                                                                so we are making head way-now can you tell me why you object to feeding protein at fall feeding to increase protein level of winter bee- or have you changed your mind or may be remembered something --from looking at earlier posts
 I would say that your-IDEAS are becoming more clear(than before) as the discussion deepens-the benefit of a well protein charged bee certainly can not be disputed -RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2011, 01:14:32 AM »

.
It is better if you debate with your self.
Communication with you is waste of time.
I do not understand what you are going to get with your style. Blood from nose?

Go to sleep. We have here 8 in the  morning. Just now we have storm, rain and +1C.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2011, 01:48:27 AM »

.
It is better if you debate with your self.
Communication with you is waste of time.
I do not understand what you are going to get with your style. Blood from nose?

Go to sleep. We have here 8 in the  morning. Just now we have storm, rain and +1C.
sory about your luck--its 10pm here and  +11c--with wind storm of 56 kil for past two days -RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2011, 06:37:43 AM »

bad luck?

I have a 2-store  brick house as a summer cottage. Roof is steel plate.  It makes a little noice in rain. I need not luck to survive here. tongue

things are not so bad as you try to imagine. Palm trees are only missing.
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T Beek
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« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2011, 07:07:27 AM »

With all the contradictory (and adversarial) info 'some' have posted, this thread has nearly become useless.

Sorry, but someone isn't helping here.....Guess who?

thomas
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2011, 12:54:14 AM »

Anyone familiar with the almond operations knows that nutrition supplemental are key to keeping honeybees healthy and up to par for February pollination.  I wish I had the link to a video where they smash about 7 lbs of sub between brood chambers to keep the bees going.  Most beeks would not be able to provide pollination without it.

The real deal is better than sub.  I could see benefit from moving a few colonies to pollen rich forage for the whole purpose of trapping pollen to use latter.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2011, 01:47:16 AM »

 yes but you dont have to feed during winter non fly months to get the benefit -you can feed
sept -oct--one thing you have to take into consideration is going to be consumption--how fast they eat it
if you are feeding right before they quite flying then you want them to eat it fast so they eat alot in the short
 time frame--natural pollen is at best 23%-24% on average so if you mix it with honey at 50/50 you are going to get
 12% or 13% protein and slow consumption-which is ok for spring when you have the whole season ahead of you
but if we can do as good or better with a sub that is 19% protein and the rest sugar your bees will eat it fast and
get the benefit of the protein and they are still flying and rearing last rounds of brood --so they wont be confined all winter with a gut full of crap--myself i feed about 8 pounds (total)per hive in sept -oct-nov and get three rounds of strong winter bees--  heres the link--RDY-B
 
 
feeding bees Nutra-Bee pollen substitue
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Finski
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« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2011, 02:33:13 AM »

.
Why I feed pollen patty in Finland in Spring

.
Very few feed pollen patty here.

I have added electrict heating to patty feeding, and in best cases, I get 3-fold build up speed.
5-frame colonies and smaller become sick with turbo handling.
With high speed build up I may aid small colonies to normal size.

The basic  reason to feeding is that it take 2 months that a big hive is able to forage surplus from early pastures. Early yield has special flavor. Dandelion is the best. When mixed to rape honey it  makes quite good end product.

Problem is that start of Juni is is cold. Often bees cannot forage dandelion in bad weather.
Bees may get 15 kg per hive dandelion honey, but  it it comes one rainy weak, they eate the yield.

Biggest meaning and long lasting meaning is that hives are strong to forage raspberry and rape. Strong hives have a bad swarming pressure in the middle on Juni but it is easy to handle with false swarms.

2) reason

big hives have a huge build up in May. They get fresh pollen and have normal feeding. Willows have light pollen and bees love to eate patty. When spring bloomming starts, like fruit trees and dandelions, bees stop patty eating.

When big hives can raise 10-15 frames in  May, 5-frame colonies can raise only 2 frames.

When bees rear in the first half of June 10 frames brood, 6 weeks later they are able to forage rape and raspberry.

At the end of May all witer bees have died and colonies start to grow.

I take some emerging brood frames from big hives and give to small colonies.
When the small colony has one box full of bees, at the beginning of June they have soon a box full of larvae. These are able to handle hovey in main yield.

Dilemma

the basic reason is to get early yield.
I can destroy this goal if I give too much brood to small colonies.

With naural build up I have only 1 yield month. With patty feeding and electrict heating my yield period is 2 months.


after all


weather rules  what will be finally the yield. But "you cannot win if you do not try".

My collaques keep me mad but it is my headace.

After 49 beekeeping years this is really boring if  i do not try to do something stupid.

I have here splended pastures because beehives are few in this corner of country.
I can select best yield  places to hives here. That is interesting every year.

. I need not to be ashame for my yields. They are mostly splended.

What is good here is multi-flower  honey. Some parts of country have mono-flower yield like canola of fire weed. It makes easy to sell the yield.

Multi-flower yield is one goal. I move hives this way too. I could move all hives to canola  fields but...... Last summer I had 7 hives on  50 hectare canola fields.  2 years ago canola gove nothing. To trust on one card is not wise.

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rdy-b
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« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2011, 04:25:42 AM »

 thats a good spring program but we are interested in the benefit of boosting protein
 levels for our winter bees benefit-and we are also concerned with the timing of these events                                            as we do not want to put a added stress factor on the confined wintering bees-of course every keeper                             must adjust to his own time line for this to happen----
 
there is allot of resistance to the feeding of protein before winter solstice--some say it is counter productive
 and are not happy with the results of a large colony and the management practices that come with this territory-
but i believe that even a small boost in protein levels for bees making the last brood rounds of the season--to be
of extreme benefit for a multitude of reasons-we have visited many examples of the science behind this and come to
understand the how and the why of it----

 supplemental feeding of bees whether fall boost or spring jump start is a management technique and a manipulation
that the bees responded to well and this has not gone unnoticed by the beekeeping industry--everyone trys to produce the best form of this product whether it is secrete formula or fagogastic stimulates added to the recipe--this is a HUGE niche market for the industry it amounts to millions of dollars and is a driving force for pollination - package bees and queens --so it is not going to fade away --the days of so so bland sugar and yeast patties are gone --every bee supplier in the us and canada has something to offer-the winter patty at the start of this thread is no exception
and is engineered for winter feeding -understanding the difference between apples and oranges makes all the difference
when protein  percents are being discussed -- cool of course this is all of little consequence for the keeper who has missed the boat this year-but when the problems of protein deficient bees rears its ugly head- hopefully you will consider these ideas for your next defense --RDY-B
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T Beek
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« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2011, 05:01:00 AM »

Thankfully, gratefully we all don't live in Finland grin

Finski; if you're bored by other beekeeping methods (that seem to be working for them and you even agree with once in a while) why do you keep coming around?  You can't even get the topic right in this case and seem hellbent on confusing every one. 

I think you just like to argue, am I right?

Just to fan the flames?  Who needs that?

thomas
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Finski
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« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2011, 09:56:07 AM »

Thankfully, gratefully we all don't live in Finland grin

Finski; if you're bored by other beekeeping methods (that seem to be working for them and you even agree with once in a while) why do you keep coming around?  You can't even get the topic right in this case and seem hellbent on confusing every one. 

I think you just like to argue, am I right?

Just to fan the flames?  Who needs that?

thomas

with your skills and experience  I would keep my mouth shut.

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Finski
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« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2011, 10:15:25 AM »

thats a good spring program but we are interested in the benefit of boosting protein
 levels for our winter bees

 supplemental feeding of bees whether fall boost or spring jump start is a management technique and a manipulation


you have different environment to bees than we have.

Our summer is short, about 2,5 month. In July all are in bloom. In second half of August very few plants have flowers. Without field red clover no pollen exists. Bees use pollen store inside hive.
Bees do not eate patty and it is bad food to wintering bees. It is not needed.

Neither I have seen that Canada uses autumn protein feeding.. Never heard.

Spring feeding is not easy here. Folks have met difficulties with it and they have gived up.
It took several years that I learned to succeed with  patty. Drying in the hive is one bad problem. ( less soya and more fructose)

If I give a recipe to people, they keep it too difficult and change the recipe. .. And it goes wrong. I have written many times my recipe into beemaster forum, but I suppose that every one use his "own common sense".
At least many recipes are nonsense. ...like open feeding. It takes nerves.



If we compare to UK, irradiated pollen is not avaiable in Britain.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2011, 02:10:04 PM »

 ** you have different environment to bees than we have.**
 yes that is true --but that is one reason to explore this topic-you have a extended period of confinement
than most--(we have already explored temps of your location and have determent that there are keepers
in the USA & CANADA that have equal or at times more severe environmental factors at play)---but the long confinement is what is taxing your bees of there natural reserves--if done correctly these reserves can be heightened to give extended
longevity to these wintering bees-with your already fine tuned spring management program you will have all basis covered
 these days bees need to be able to fight off new pathogens and even a one two punch of multiple pathogens-that can start a cascade event -which will cause poor response from spring management techniques---

** Neither I have seen that Canada uses autumn protein feeding.. Never heard.**
 
 yes fall patties -winter patties --they feed huge amounts-where do you think global patties are originated
they are pioneers in there efforts--- cool RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2011, 05:03:16 PM »


.
Rugby. You should be carefull what you try to feed to me.

I have read carefully Canadian Honey Coucil letters and I cannot find winter protein feeding.
Agricultural Ministry neither mentions them.

Today Canada uses  several years old arguments when they arvertise protein feeding.

Canada has severe winters. It it vain to offer USA - CANADA wintering knowledge.
When you have in winter in south USA +20C temp, in Winnipeg they have -40C.
They cannot open hives at winter and feed them. They surely die with that method.

In Australia they have tried to feed bees with protein. Bee became sick.

Canadians have advertised FeedBee pollensubsitute that it is as good as pollen.
I got the stuff 25 kg and..... My bees did not want to eate it. I tried 4 weeks to feed it.
Then I understood to kick it off and feed my own recipe. They started to eate it 100% more than FeedBee.

You have a famous bee doctor Heather Mattila. She has reseached protein feeding to bees. She was a person to tell that under nutrition is a backround of CCD.

Rugby, you writes things from your corner of earth. I know much thing about bee protein nutrition. Don't keep me fool, ....please. But never mind....it is same to me.

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rdy-b
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« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2011, 06:22:06 PM »

why not ask the manufacture what is going on--  http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/articles/fall.htm
  
  cool RDY-B
                                                                  http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/why.htm

  
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rdy-b
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« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2011, 06:35:48 PM »


**Rugby, you writes things from your corner of earth. I know much thing about bee protein nutrition. Don't keep me fool, ....please. But never mind...it is same to me.**

 finski there have been over 1200 hits to this thread--please understand that everything i post is not directed at JUST you- Smiley
 during these topic discussions we are providing a lot of beneficial information-whether it has become repition to use or not-its ok if its not a system we would employ --I have never known you to be thin skined-we will pick this up again it comes up at least three times each winter--so if it makes you feell better--I YIELD TO THE MAN FROM FINLAND-- cool  rolleyes RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2011, 07:02:11 PM »

why not ask the manufacture what is going on--  http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/articles/fall.htm
  
  cool RDY-B
                                                                  http://www.globalpatties.com/pages/why.htm

  


that is too fat.

I know the value of that kind of information.

Better to stop here.  You do not understand the difference between California and Canada.

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bee-nuts
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« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2011, 06:36:58 AM »

"Better to stop here."

Please dont!  Winter is long, dont let it be boring.
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Finski
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« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2011, 10:20:03 AM »

"Better to stop here."

Please dont!  Winter is long, dont let it be boring.

sorry but we have here that kind of  forum guys enough. No need to go over seas.

Take your pills in time.
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