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Author Topic: Soy Flour vs. Gluten Flour as a Protein Supplement  (Read 3099 times)
AliciaH
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« on: February 16, 2011, 05:53:56 PM »

Okay, I am not a gardner and I am not a cook, but having bees is sure making me learn more about both!

I want to make up some patties for my girls and see that the recommended ingredients are soy flour, brewers yeast, and sugar (in all sorts of quantity variations with other stuff thrown in sometimes).

While in the bulk food section of the store to retrieve my soy flour, I noticed that gluten flour had over 2x the protein that soy flour does.

I did searches, both here and with Google, but cannot seem to find whether or not gluten flour is okay for the bees.  I did find one article that stated that in that writer's experiment, the bees took the gluten flour but did not actually feed it to the brood.  Other than that, I didn't find much.  I'm guessing that it's not just about the protein content? 

So, 1) why/why not is gluten flour okay for the bees?  2) what is it about gluten flour that would keep the bees from feeding it to the brood, 3) is that the answer in itself -- that they won't feed it to the brood, which is why you're supplementing in the first place?

Thanks!
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Finski
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2011, 01:13:27 AM »

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I have read all bee nutrification researches from Internet what I have met.
I have not met gluten as bee food. Perhaps price is the reason.

I did not fing gluten's aminoacid constituent but I look the wheat and here is comparision
witrh bees' need versus wheat aminoacids.

Bee
need   .   Wheat   ....      .....   Difference
5,3   ….   4,8   ….   Arginine   ….   91%
2,5   ….   2,5   ….   Histidine   ….   100%
5,1   ….   3,4   ….   Isoleucine   ….   67%
7,1   ….   6,8   ….   Leucine   ….   96%
6,4   ….   2,6   ….   Lysine   ….   41%
1,9   ….   1,7   ….   Methionine   ….   89%
4,1   ….   4,9   ….   Phenyalalamine   ….   120%
4,1   ….   2,5   ….   Threomine   ….   61%
1,4   ….      ….   Trypotophane   ….   
5,8   ….   3,8   ….   Valine   ….   66%


MInimum factor is Lysine only 40% of needed balance and second minimum factors are Threomine and  Isoleucine. Soya flour has better balance in aminoacids.
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2011, 01:19:19 AM »


More reading

FAT BEES SKINNY BEES-a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers-150 pages
A report for the ... fat/lipid requirements of honey bees or on the definitive benefits to honey bees of various fatty ...

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054.pdf ท PDF-fil
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AliciaH
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 09:38:15 AM »

Wow!  Thanks, Finski!  I will download that today and give it a good read! 
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organicfarmer
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 07:53:58 AM »

IMNSHO, real pollen is still the better adapted protein source for your ladies. You may not have any on hands (and i would not necessarily go and buy from store as of source unknown) but you may think to harvest some - fairly simple - keep it in your freezer for the following spring. They'll do much better on that than on artificial feeds.
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Finski
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 12:03:32 PM »

They'll do much better on that than on artificial feeds.

Yes but yeast and soya flour are good to start the spring. Nothing wrong in it. Pollen is 4 times more expencive.
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AliciaH
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 03:33:22 PM »

organicfarmer:  You are absolutely correct, and you can bet I'm making plans to harvest pollen this season!  I did last season, too, but without going into details, I had such a bad year over all that I wasn't comfortable asking the bees to give up anything.  But this is a new year, right?

Finski:  Thanks again for the heads up on the article!  I downloaded it and read it last evening.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around some of the math (I'm a visual learner).  But IF I am understanding the context correctly, it's better to feed more of a substance that is overall more emulative of pollen, than to feed a smaller quantity of a substance that is higher in protein but lacking in the other needed ingredients.  That is why soy is the better flour to use that the gluten, yes?

What I also got from my reading is that the pollen substitue patties I gave everyone (with soy flour, yeast, etc.) is good for a patch and helps a little, but will not really promote the brood growth that real pollen will.

I have several frames of honey in the freezer, but none of my hives need them.  It dawned on me, though, that I should go through them all to see if any pollen got stored in them.  That's today's project.
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Finski
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2011, 12:15:54 AM »

What I also got from my reading is that the pollen substitue patties I gave everyone (with soy flour, yeast, etc.) is good for a patch and helps a little, but will not really promote the brood growth that real pollen will.



organicfarmer is really wrong. He has his feelings and that is not knowledge.

Makes no sence to feed bees to promote the brood growth , unless it does not REALLY work. Of course it does.  My big hives are able to forage a month earlier surplus than with natural system.
Small hives use all nectar to enlarge their colony.

I feed about 100 kg pollen patty in spring, and that is not for fun










« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 12:26:50 AM by Finski » Logged

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AliciaH
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2011, 12:13:04 PM »

So, Finski, just to confirm, you are saying that you feed (or have fed) a substitute pollen (no actual pollen) patty and that your bees have done well with it?  That is good news! 

I do believe that the real thing is almost always better, but in its absence one can also come close if one tries. 

I just wanted to boost the girls a bit as we enter this precarious time of winter where it seems like there is some pollen starting to become available, but if the bad weather hits again, the girls are not going to fly to find it.  It's one of the issues that got me into serious trouble last May/June, when the unusually serious rains came in Western Washington.  I kept testing the weights of the hives and they seemed fine, but when I inspected, realized they had nothing for the babies.

Thanks, again, for all your help, and again with recommending the article.  I need to do more research but feel with that article as a starting point, I have a better idea of what information I should be looking for!   Smiley
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Finski
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2011, 02:44:47 PM »

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Here is glutein used as protein source.

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20090625ptan20090162482.php

"Protein and Lipid Sources. Protein and lipid sources are preferably corn gluten sources in combination with soy concentrate, barley flour, yeast, and/or corn distillers dry grains. Corn gluten, such as that sold as a granular 60% protein product number 138930 under the Prairie Goldฎ trademark, is noted for its high energy and methionine content and as a source of xanthophylls."

Look however the mixture...
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 07:17:54 PM »

I'm going to be using a pollen trap to collect pollen intermittenly all season long.  I will store it by freezing it.  Come next spring I will use real pollen to make pollen patties. 

I just don't like substitues.  In the past I've used flour, soy flour, brewer's yeast, and corn meal in making up patties for spring boosts and have never been satisfied with the result.  But then that's not saying I'll end up liking real pollen patties either.  I just like the idea of real pollen better.
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Finski
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 01:39:35 AM »

 I just like the idea of real pollen better.

The best solution is that I store enough pollen frames for next spring. That is the style how Carniolan is able to make early build up. Italian bees use not to store pollen enough over winter like Carniolan.

I have find out a patty receipt what is very tasty to bees. Willow pollen has only 15% raw protein.
My bees stop patty eating when they get diverse mixture of pollen at the beginning of summer. It is time of dandelions and apple flowers.

When swarms draw combs, they eate patty too.

Patty feeding goes fine expecially when weathers are rainy and bees cannot fly to willows. In bad cases they stop brooding totally, but with patty they continue 50% brooding.


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Bee Happy
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 01:36:13 PM »

I feed about 100 kg pollen patty in spring, and that is not for fun

What does that work out to per-hive?
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Finski
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 03:36:42 PM »

I feed about 100 kg pollen patty in spring, and that is not for fun

What does that work out to per-hive?

I drive every week from capital city to my summer cottage where bees are. 300 km there and back.


It is not work to me.

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Bee Happy
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 03:45:09 PM »

Sorry, Finski, I mean to say - what is the average consumption from the 100Kg for each hive.
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Finski
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 12:03:50 AM »

Sorry, Finski, I mean to say - what is the average consumption from the 100Kg for each hive.

It is about 500 g per week a hive. I add it once a week.

Small colonies like 3-5 frames become often sick for patty and get chalkbrood.
With them iy is better wait and give a frame of emerging bees later from big hives.
To small hives it is enough to give polen frame.

***********

Even aften wintering, when colony has no brood, they have a big lack of protein. They eate very fast the first dosage of patty.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 12:27:54 AM by Finski » Logged

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jaseemtp
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 06:35:22 AM »

So what is a good recipe for home made pollen patties?
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affreux
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 09:51:08 AM »

Finski, what type of paper are you using with you patties?
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2011, 04:29:40 PM »

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It is cooking paper or greese proof paper
They keep the patty moist. Most of the paper pieces will be found on bottom.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2011, 10:49:32 PM »

So what is a good recipe for home made pollen patties?
adjust this to your own batch size:
 50lbs brewers yeast
 60lbs granulated sugar
 5lbs powdered egg yok
 5lbs soy isolate (this is not soy flour)
48oz canola oil
 48oz corn oil
1lb cytric acid crystals
3.25 gal hot water
1/2 cup HbH

 this will give you around 19% protien and the added colesterol from egg yolk will give you EXTENDED BROOD REARING
adjust the size of batch for your needs-this is about 150lb batch--- cool RDY-B

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