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Author Topic: The 99%  (Read 15650 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #180 on: February 14, 2012, 10:08:34 AM »

Quote
to "theft is good" today   


yes, by way of taxation and redistribution.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #181 on: February 14, 2012, 11:39:04 AM »

I can agree w/ that, just not the direction you believe we all should head, which I believe will give us more of the same simply because I hear nothing or see nothing new from those you want to trust with my future.  

In America and most of the world, we both tax and redistribute wealth in a backward direction.  One that will always favor the ruling (self-appropriators) class because it keeps them in the position they've designed for themselves.

We're fooled into believing the economy works top down, that capital comes before labor, that self-appropriated LAND is 'earned' capital, not to be equally shared, when in reality its the opposite and has been for a very long time.  

When researched objectively this is the only conclusion we can come to.  The arguments have all been argued to death already to no remedy.....yet.   This movement is rapidly growing.  Its light is shining brighter every day.

Once it is more widely recognized (the internet is helping) that the very economists we have been taught to cherish and abide by, such as Malthus and Ricardo and yes even Mr. Smith, had obvious flaws in their theories that were not only pointed out at the time (and still are today), but are blatant flaws that can only (and do only) favor the most wealthy in any society, the game will finally be over.  

No more Merry-Go-Round for a few while the rest ride a broken down roller coaster, or just spend their entire lives watching from the ground.  

The fact that the ruling elite of the time selected to 'ignore' these economic flaws that would redistribute wealth in a more 'natural' manner, and the same elite continues to ignore the same flaws today, should cause widespread suspicion, mistrust and revolt, but instead it is used as a means to keep the masses divided, confused and stupid.  

Natural economics as detailed by HENRY GEORGE is not that hard to understand as I've been trying to explain, despite the resistance and misunderstanding.

Our 49th State almost got it right in adopting a very GEOISTIC approach to OIL Extraction on their LAND, whereby 'dividends' are now paid to every citizen for granting BIG OIL the right to exploit Alaskan Oil.  They just should have held out for a better deal IMO.  

Just 'One' of many examples where forward thinking economics can work for the benefit of everyone, not just the few at the top.

t
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« Reply #182 on: February 14, 2012, 03:50:52 PM »

This movement is rapidly growing.  Its light is shining brighter every day.

Faster than one might think.

Henry George traveled the world, but he was American. The system he proposed will work in America I'm sure. However other countries, other cultures might implement other systems for the same end: economic and social justice necessary for lasting peace and prosperity.
In African or Asian countries probably different tools fit their traditions and cultures.

As an example let's see Hungary. Until WW1 it was one of the most prosperous countries of the world.
Why? It prevented the accumulation of the LAND in a few hands. It was owned by nobody and accessible by everybody.

This is Hungary's emblem


The crown on the top is the Holy Crown of Hungary: the symbol of sovereignty to which all the land belong.

Quote
Since the Holy Crown has sovereignty it also owns property. During the era of Andrew II and Bela IV, (13th century) the notion of “inalienable crown properties” was created to provide special protection to the public wealth jointly owned by the nation and the monarch. The reason for this was the emergence of a power player at the time: private banks that brought along mortgage. A new property law therefore required that real estate owned by the Holy Crown could not be sold or given away so as not to impose mortgage on the state.

http://www.commonsensebudapest.com/en/2011/01/should-the-holy-crown-doctrine-be-included-in-the-preamble/

Since 1st January 2012 Hungary has the Holy Crown in its written constitution.



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kathyp
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« Reply #183 on: February 14, 2012, 10:57:35 PM »

so the land belongs to all 300 million people in the US.  houses too?  you have a mostly urban population now.  who farms and why bother if you don't own the land?  do you get to keep or market what you grow on the "public" land?  what if you are farming a large piece of land and someone decides they want to use it for 4 wheeling?  what if you live in a house and someone decides they want to move in with you? 

i guess we could get ourselves a king to keep things in order and have a go at it.....of course, they had a very wealthy upper class and we wouldn't want that.  they encourage outside people to come in and invest in getting industry going...we wouldn't want that.  until industrialization they had virtually no middle class and were pretty much an agrarian society....we wouldn't want to all go back to farming....

i only see a few problems with this idea of collectivism, beyond those already pointed out by societies that have tried it. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #184 on: February 15, 2012, 06:49:11 AM »

Your almost there kathyp  cool .  At least you're asking some questions and that alone is a good thing  Wink .  But you do have it mixed up a bit, not your fault.  WE are all indoctrinated from birth to believe a lie that places some at the top of society and others at the bottom, w/ both supported by the middle.

Have you read any Henry George yet?  Many can't make it past the introduction of "Progress and Poverty" and then assume they know what's inside, a common human flaw.   But all is not lost.  

"IF" you are really interested in what I am trying to convey, start there.  You may find that we have much more in common than you ever realized, and like a miracle (I'm not kidding) you 'will' experience a shift in consciousness.

"By and large, people have always put conformity above reform."

Capitalists and Socialists 'appear' to disagree about everything.  But there is 'one' area of political economy where their views are very similar.  Both camps like to lump LAND and CAPITAL under the single heading of CAPITAL and many even include money as capital.  This presents us w/ the ultimate confusion, purposely implemented (you'd know that if you read the book or have studied economics for any period) upon the 'sleeping' masses.

This confusion prevents socialists from seeing the possibility of a beneficial free market without the element of MONOPOLY.  And it prevents capitalists from seeing the fundamental role of the public sector in a just and prosperous market economy.

Both sides get pretty worked up trying to force one philosophy or the other upon each other and I can assure all readers; That this is NEVER an accident.  How am I doing so far?

So, is there any standard of justice that economic policy can be based?

First we must clarify the question of the rightful basis of public vs private ownership.  No easy feat w/ all the confusion thrown at us....on purpose and done solely to keep us that way.

Because of all the 'spirited' (largely emotionally driven) back and forth, the bulk of the debate revolves around how much efficiency of free enterprise must be traded for public interference, imposed in the name of equity.  OK, still with me?

The question of a 'rightful' balance then becomes one of expediency and political fashion and clearly lacks ANY guiding principles.  In fact, so called 'modern' neoclassical economics denies (?) that any such principle exists.  Talk about confusion.

However, the principle when viewed w/out all the forced confusion is actually quite clear.  Here goes;

"The value of natural opportunities belongs entirely to the community, and the production of wealth by LABOR, using capital, should be entirely unburdened by taxation (I know some are rubbing their eyes and reading that again, heh?).

The important question is not the amount of wealth that should be taken by the community, but the KIND of wealth that should 'rightfully' go to the community, because it is a value that was 'created' by the community.  Read that sentence as many times as it takes to get it in your heads, because this is one of the ROOTS.

The EARTH belongs to all people.  Always has.  It is a simple concept that once completely understood and purposely adopted will result in an END to poverty around the Globe, as well as the END of MONOPOLIZATION by the few.

I sincerely hope this inspires some readers to at least give Henry George a look-see and ask whether its time for his ideas to finally come to fruit in a big way.  Although he's been dead for over 100 years I for one believe his theories are finally ready to be implemented on a worldwide scale.  I also think 'people' are ready for 'something' different than what we all are beginning to recognise as a great theft upon us all, that is in place ONLY TO BENIFIT the already well-off, welfare culture of leisure.  The people have been waiting for this solution for a long time.

I also happen to believe that only when we do so, will we end the monopolization of 'our' planet by a handful of greedy capitalists (anti-socialists  Wink) running wild w/ yours and my money, LAND and capital.

As I've pointed out on a number of occasions, the communities that have adopted some GEOISTIC economics have done pretty well by them.  And more are enlisting these ideas all the time.  America has been lagging behind (w/ exception of Alaska and a few small US communities, many abroad) and needs to play some catch up IMO.

t
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 10:04:48 AM by T Beek » Logged

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cbuchh48
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« Reply #185 on: February 15, 2012, 07:53:06 AM »

A short read on single tax       http://www.henrygeorge.org/pdfs/denigris.pdf
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kathyp
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« Reply #186 on: February 15, 2012, 10:17:31 AM »

sorry, i wasn't looking for a screed or a reading assignment.  my mistake for not being clear.  i was looking for real world examples of how this would work...right here and right now.

 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #187 on: February 15, 2012, 10:36:53 AM »

cbuchh48; Excellent post!!!  Thanks a bunch!!!

An excellent primer for anyone 'truly' interested in our eventual future IMO.  The provided 'examples of successes' in the text were eye opening even for this geoist.

To bad some will never even consider it, much less actually read any of it.  They already know what its all about  rolleyes and nothing is gonna rock their boat  Sad.

t
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T Beek
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« Reply #188 on: February 15, 2012, 10:45:05 AM »

C'mon kathyp; we both know it really doesn't matter how many examples are provided, now don't we?

t
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kathyp
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« Reply #189 on: February 15, 2012, 11:26:50 AM »

we'll never know if you can't/won't provide some, will we? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #190 on: February 15, 2012, 12:15:39 PM »

we'll never know if you can't/won't provide some, will we? 

How many lumps you got kathy?

Not by getting hit with any truth bricks, but the fact that you seem to beat yourself against the wall with folks who already have everything figured out.  grin Pure rhetoric of utopian pipedreams will never be supported by actual facts or examples. But you already know that.  Smiley
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kathyp
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« Reply #191 on: February 15, 2012, 12:29:20 PM »

Oh, you know....it's only time  shocked

i'm always interested in the practical application of theory.  rarely does the application rise to the level of the dream, but there are exceptions....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #192 on: February 15, 2012, 02:42:56 PM »

You know kathyp (and Bjornbee as well sense you couldn't resist), You're telling everyone on this thread that you haven't even bothered to read what I and several others have already typed, you're so certain you already know it all, when its so obvious that you have no idea.  Its obvious to all who 'do' read these posts that neither of you have bothered to read what I've written nor have you read any George.

If you can't at least do that, what do you expect from me?  You need go back only a bit for several examples of not only past successes of geoism economics, but current ones too, some right 'in your own backyards' even.  You would have seen them IF YOU WERE LOOKING.  Its no wonder you don't know what I'm talking about  rolleyes  you obviously don't want to know.

So, If you're too LAZY to look (or is it too blind to see?) or just like to argue for the sake of arguing, that's your problem, not mine.  How can anyone expect to have an informed or meaningful debate w/ someone (anyone) who doesn't even bother to digest the material?  

And I get called a troll, gimmi a break  rolleyes  Why?  Because I take some of you from your comfort zones or make you think too much perhaps?   You both remind me of the reasons I quit High School at the end of 9th grade (but recieved a Masters Degree 12 years later).

The 'old brush off' is plain lazy and has no place on an 'open' forum IMO, sorry.  I won't waste my time with some you any more, no skin off my ooops  Wink .  

But by the same token, if you want to test me w/ more of your condesending, phony baloney, blather and smoke, I will still call you on it when ever I see it, someone has to.  Smiley .  

t
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 07:03:49 AM by T Beek » Logged

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T Beek
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« Reply #193 on: February 17, 2012, 05:32:27 PM »

Lot's of questions waiting to be answered here (par for the course maybe?) and 'we the people' (of the World) can't just let it all go, now can we?.  Hopefully some folks are thinking a little and doing some reading   Smiley about this time  Wink  huh huh  TURN OFF THAT DARN TV!! or better yet, throw it out the door  Smiley

I thought America liked to set the example for the rest of the world, instead of waiting for others to show 'us' the way  huh   I guess we must still have it too good perhaps.  C'mon people, don't go back to sleep.

It would be great if someone else 'tried' to teach lesson 2  grin  Now I can imagine perfectly what Henry George went through.

t
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kathyp
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« Reply #194 on: February 17, 2012, 06:22:52 PM »

well, see, i didn't think there was any point in carrying on this conversation if you couldn't/wouldn't answer my questions.  specifically:  what are some examples of practical application of this 19th century theory, in the 21st century? 

i fully understand if you can't paint that picture.  theory is always so much easier than practice. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #195 on: February 17, 2012, 07:31:29 PM »

It would be great if someone else 'tried' to teach lesson 2  grin 
T, we already have the great teacher, it's the students that are the problem! 

We can lead a horse to water but we can't make them drink.  Maybe the Horse is the wrong equine.
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« Reply #196 on: February 17, 2012, 09:24:05 PM »

""TURN OFF THAT DARN TV!! or better yet, throw it out the door""

WHAT?? Tbeek said something that actually makes sense. HOORAH!!

Now if he will just open his eyes to the real world.
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« Reply #197 on: February 17, 2012, 09:52:43 PM »

""TURN OFF THAT DARN TV!! or better yet, throw it out the door""

WHAT?? Tbeek said something that actually makes sense. HOORAH!!

Now if he will just open his eyes to the real world.

Oh I think TBeek see's the real world very well. grin
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« Reply #198 on: February 17, 2012, 10:22:23 PM »

Now if we can just get cbuchh48 to do the same. Cheesy
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« Reply #199 on: February 18, 2012, 08:27:43 AM »

I guess "too blind to see" was the right description all along for those who can't quite bring themselves to see what's been placed right in front of their noses.  Sad 

t
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