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Author Topic: The 99%  (Read 16461 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #140 on: February 11, 2012, 07:21:43 AM »

If you all are 'really' ready for some schooling I'll take the time, but all I'm about to say is readily available to those who wish to LOOK.

It is only too apparent (to me) that many of you are 'true believers' in the myths (lies) that brought us to this point in history and have blinders on to protect you from absorbing too much truth, even an absolute, universal truth.  

While I feel it is important for people to be informed of the lies, it is equally important to know the truth, no matter how disruptive to our since of self or perception of how the world works.

As humans in today's world, perhaps our biggest collective error is/was in "mistaking the profits derived by monopolies (Kings, Queens and the rest) as the legitimate earnings of Capital."  They are not.

This belief is both absurd and NEVER too late to correct. It won't be easy but its NEVER too late to begin accepting some reality and this is as good a place as any to start, the beginning.

The appropriation of 'rents' inflicted by the wealthy classes (by what right?) upon the less privileged classes for over 2000 years is where our story begins.  It is first and formost a flawed concept that goes against natural laws and our very nature, once looked at w/ fresh vision.  

Landowners (ever wonder how some of them came to 'own' so much? Perhaps that will be another lesson?) have been unjustly 'charging' those of us less fortunates for our very existence and occupation of the planet as if 'they' were the rulers of the world for long enough.  Well, we did help them come to that conclusion didn't we.

Unfortunately, this is backward thinking and must be corrected by force if necessary, in order to make any affective change.  Our future really does depend on it.

The fact is 'we the people' aka; the Commons, should be 'receiving rent' from the self-appropriators (the rich) of the world, not the other way around.  This system which ONLY benefits the already well-off for monopolizing/exploiting the capital (LAND) that belongs to us all, just like air and water.  

Why do some believe the wealthy somehow deserve this special privilege over the rest of us?  Because its what we are told to believe.

Just this simple change in how we view land and land ownership would result in a more equal sharing of the world and its resources, thereby ending poverty as we know it, along with taxes as we know them, EXCEPT for those Taxes or fees based exclusively on the USE or exploitation of OUR planet EARTH.   Now some of you may be starting to realize the hard part of this shift.   Nothing worthwhile is ever easy people.

Simply put though; those who profit off our collective LAND and its resources (which 'clearly' belong to ALL life, not just the wealthy) should be required to PAY BACK to the society it 'feeds' off.  While it may lessen their profit margins some, they would remain rich "IF" they actually worked or produced something while occupying the LAND, maybe not filthy rich but rich nonetheless.  

And if they didn't 'produce' then the LAND would return to the people, or to such person or persons who did choose to 'produce' on the LAND and was able to PAY BACK for such use.  

Is any of this starting to make some since to 'some' of you?  I know, I know.  Its like discovering that a fix was purposely made (it was) to steal your livelyhood (LAND) and now you discover that you even helped the thieves and thanked them for their thieving.  

Once the eyes are opened its hard to close them again.  Acknowledging this truth is not an easy thing to live with, I know, but acknowledge it we must.  

Acknowledging the lies and the truth; That is the first step and 'the end' of this lesson  Smiley

iddee; of all people I figured you'd know sarcasm when you saw it, guess not  rolleyes .  My response was only a 'light' reaction to 'the rather strange example 'you' provided.  Sorry, no offence was intended.  No need to get MAD  grin

thomas
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 06:20:12 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #141 on: February 11, 2012, 07:41:26 AM »

Truth is all in your perception. Every individual seeks his own truth.
Hitler saw his ideals as the truth.So did Stalin,Marx and Chairman Mao.
I guess the fact that people flee other nations to come here is not a truth in itself. The US has not had to put up a fence to keep people in.
 I wonder why many immigrants from Asian cultures come here and do quite well for themselves? Do you suppose it's a work ethic that promotes their rise from the bottom? Or is it some magic pill?   
 People have come from all walks of life in this country to become"wealthy" . This has been the land of opportunity.If people are not willing to work hard to improve their lot in life,they are not automatically entitled to the fruits of the labor that someone else has busted their rear end for.
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T Beek
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« Reply #142 on: February 11, 2012, 08:34:05 AM »

I must respectfully disagree buzzbee and am disappointed that you didn't even attempt to grasp the issue I've tried to explain in some detail.  Universal truths are just that, universal.  

Too many of us 'choose' to believe what 'feels' good, often against our own best interests and despite any obvious truth.  We don't like rocking the boat even when its sinking it appears.  Call it human nature if you want.

The concept of individual ownership of LAND and its resources was/is (should be/must be) as foreign to the rest of humanity as the ownership of water and air, that is until armies started forming and 'taking the land' from us all and began charging us to 'live' here.  

AGAIN buzzbee;  By what right?  Don't you want to know?  Please offer an explanation that would at least make some sense.  Because "That's the way its always been" is not good enough, not for me anyway, besides being a lie.

If that's acceptable to anyone (but the wealthy) I fail to understand the rational, but that's just me.  Its twisted logic IMO.  Part of the MYTH perpetuated by the landlords.  If some of us continue to insist upon allowing this 'gift' to be provided to the 'few' over the equal rights of others then that is exactly what we will get and shows us exactly why we are here today.  See the cat?  See the cradle?  (GB KV!)

I knew there'd be resistance to this 'very old concept' (the original truth, if you will) from those insisting on maintaining the status quo on behalf of the well-off, but it is only too clear to me that it is a 'lack of understanding' of how we got here that will keep us here.  

Keeping us divided and distracted from the REAL issue, so the thieving can continue is part of the plan.  I told you all it wouldn't be easy to accept this concept and that any real changes would remain completely unacceptable to those who 'must' see themselves as eventual LANDLORDS in the future (why else?).

So much for trying to provide some sunshine on this subject, heh?  We see only what we want to see, the essence of human folly  grin .

thomas
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:06:37 AM by T Beek » Logged

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T Beek
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« Reply #143 on: February 11, 2012, 09:01:29 AM »

buzzbee said; "if people are not willing to work hard to improve their lot in life, they are not automatically entitled to the fruits of the labor that someone else has busted their rear ends for."

That's an apt description of the wealthy (especially those who simply inherit wealth) in my book.

thomas
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« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2012, 09:15:08 AM »

>>And you have to remember a corporations first obligations are to the stockholders. Not the government,not the employees.

The exact reason we NEED Collective bargaining. Any largess by the corporation is a violation of the stockholder

>>A corporation offers a pay rate. You always have the freedom to leave. They pay what people are willing to work for.

(see first quote) Corporations pay the minimum wage that they can get workers for, and they will move to lower it.

>> I wonder why many immigrants from Asian cultures come here and do quite well for themselves? Do you suppose it's a work ethic that promotes their rise from the bottom?  

Check our immigration laws. Most have a good work ethic, but they don't start at the bottom. The illegals from the south have a great work ethic too!

>>soon A is know as Ugg, maker of pointy rock spear tips and is honored throughout the land.
Soon after that: pointy stick makers were in excess and the hunters were saying things like 'those lazy PS makers want too much for their sticks' and 'I can get them cheaper down stream' grin

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« Reply #145 on: February 11, 2012, 10:34:39 AM »

i'll deal with T in a moment because his will be short.

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The exact reason we NEED Collective bargaining. Any largess by the corporation is a violation of the stockholder

not so.  first, and i hate to keep doing this but it is necessary, define largess.  to most leftists, largess = profit.  profit is what a business is supposed to do.  it is it's first priority.  it has no reason to exist if it is not making a profit.


Quote
Corporations pay the minimum wage that they can get workers for, and they will move to lower it.

of course they do. labor is one of the biggest costs of doing business. if you add in benefit packages and legacy costs, it is the biggest for many, and especially union, businesses.

Quote
Check our immigration laws. Most have a good work ethic, but they don't start at the bottom. The illegals from the south have a great work ethic too!

and competition was born!!   Wink
not sure what your point is except to maybe point out why companies would want to hire nonunion workers?

Quote
Soon after that: pointy stick makers were in excess and the hunters were saying things like 'those lazy PS makers want too much for their sticks' and 'I can get them cheaper down stream'
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #146 on: February 11, 2012, 10:39:03 AM »

ok...TBeek.  i started to write a longer post and killed it.  your thinking does not require my time.

you did do one thing that is important:  you used a lot of words to illustrate vividly one of the reasons there will always be people who are not wealthy.
  if i had spent as much time in my life, fussing about what others have instead of concentrating on making good decisions and succeeding, i guess i'd be pretty bitter about what others have too! 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #147 on: February 11, 2012, 11:16:31 AM »

Sarcasm?? Is that what you resort to when you know you are wrong, but are unwilling to admit it?

You really think a family should spend 2 or 3 generations building homes and fences, prepping land, doing without many things to get the farm in condition to produce, then anyone who might want to should be able to walk in and plant their crops and live in the house?

WOW, what a way to think. OR maybe a way to troll, as I don't understand how anyone could possibly believe that way.

No, I'm not mad. I just pity anyone who thinks the way you write. I really don't think you really think that. I believe you are only trolling.
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« Reply #148 on: February 11, 2012, 11:26:50 AM »

Well Ray,
You prove my point,the down south immigrants come here to improve on their wealth. They are not being forced at gunpoint to come here.They come by choice.Yeah you have some doing the work others do not want to do,again by choice,but many are here to become part of the society that lives off of the producers. Maybe the collective bargainers would do better do go south of the border. It sounds like they need help more than us.
 
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« Reply #149 on: February 11, 2012, 01:18:01 PM »

>>Maybe the collective bargainers would do better do go south of the border. It sounds like they need help more than us.
Correct Smiley Does it have to get that bad up here?

IMO: people are lumping all unions together. They are as diverse as America herself.

>>define largess.  to most leftists, largess = profit
largess = generosity
profit = the money left over from expenses
>> Any largess by the corporation is a violation of the stockholder
Any GENEROSITY by the.........

"United we bargain, divided we beg" a Union idiom.

If: The CEO of corporation A, decides that Fred is such an asset that he is given bonus. The CEO has STOLEN from the stockholders.

Actually in a large corporation; the worker is just a number, a faceless entity whose value is assessed at REPLACEMENT cost.

>>. labor is one of the biggest costs of doing business. if you add in benefit packages and legacy costs,
Would someone tell me where the BOTTOM should be?
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« Reply #150 on: February 11, 2012, 01:24:04 PM »

I am not sure where you come from that divided we beg. In our area non union employees are making some better wages than their unionized counterparts.
And the more productive employee is not tied to the same pay scale as the ones who just are there putting in their time.You may want to look at who the union is protecting. It seems around here the union is protecting the dues not the dues payer.
  I take offense that you can't get a job in some places unless you join the union.
 
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T Beek
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« Reply #151 on: February 11, 2012, 02:11:36 PM »

This is way too much fun  rolleyes  but what the heck  tongue.  

The inability or unwillingness (not sure which) to comprehend/understand or entertain anothers viewpoint w/out all the false assumptions and demonizing is simply pathetic and demonstrates clearly who's time is being wasted at this place, certainly not the first time.

Hey, at least I was trying to understand where some of you are coming from, despite the continued refusal to offer concise or precise answers or explanations to numerous inquiries.  Its not my fault some of you don't 'like' what your getting.  

If you don't want to hear alternative opinions, then cut those who disagree with you out of your circles  (the masters will love you for it  Wink), stop joining open forums perhaps  huh  After all, I know how much easier it is to just brush others off when you don't agree with them, I used to be like that too.  Maybe I still am.

Xin Loi (yet again  grin)

T?  Really?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 06:26:06 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #152 on: February 11, 2012, 02:42:23 PM »

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If: The CEO of corporation A, decides that Fred is such an asset that he is given bonus. The CEO has STOLEN from the stockholders.

this is the union mindset that rewards and protects mediocre employees.  i don't consider it theft, as a shareholder, if good performance is rewarded.  i consider it theft when poor performance is protected.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #153 on: February 11, 2012, 03:15:40 PM »

kathyp; honestly I don't know why we disagree on so many things, and then you say something totally profound;  because you just proved another earlier point for me by stating that "protecting poor performance is theft."  

I couldn't agree more, but unfortunately that's exactly what we do when we protect the rights of one class over the rights of others.  When we afflict the afflicted instead of the well-off, who's rights are written in the peoples blood and 'fully' protected (from us?).  When we don't 'all' share in the misery 'we all helped create.'  

Isn't that also theft?

Do you not understand that that is the very system we currently have (nearly perfect now after 2000 years  rolleyes) and that you seem obsessed with protecting?  

Despite all the rhetoric and propaganda, this didn't all begin w/ Obama.  You do realize that right?  Jeeze; He's just the latest tool (distraction) selected to maintain the status quo on behalf of those more fortunate than most of us can even imagine.

t
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« Reply #154 on: February 11, 2012, 04:37:53 PM »

not so.  first, and i hate to keep doing this but it is necessary, define reward.  to most righties , a reward diminishes profit.  profit is what a business is supposed to do.  it is it's first priority.  it has no reason to exist if it is not making a profit. grin
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« Reply #155 on: February 11, 2012, 04:43:58 PM »

Quote
I couldn't agree more, but unfortunately that's exactly what we do when we protect the rights of one class over the rights of others.  When we afflict the afflicted instead of the well-off, who's rights are written in the peoples blood and 'fully' protected (from us?).  When we don't 'all' share in the misery 'we all helped create.' 


the difference is that i am talking about the decisions of private business.  you are talking about the collective with policies dictated by government.

Quote
Despite all the rhetoric and propaganda, this didn't all begin w/ Obama.  You do realize that right?  Jeeze; .

well aware of it, but it does seem to have taken a good dose of steroids with this admin.

Quote
He's just the latest tool (distraction) selected to maintain the status quo on behalf of those more fortunate than most of us can even imagine

to the extent that you are talking about crony capitalism and "social justice" i agree.  we have not practiced real capitalism as a country for many years.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #156 on: February 11, 2012, 04:46:59 PM »

Quote
not so.  first, and i hate to keep doing this but it is necessary, define reward.  to most righties , a reward diminishes profit.  profit is what a business is supposed to do.  it is it's first priority.  it has no reason to exist if it is not making a profit.


profit is not reduced when hard work is recognized.  it is reduced when mediocre work is not punished.  either way, it should be the decision of the business.  anyone who is a shareholder would encourage and support practices which increase productivity and profit.  it only  makes sense.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #157 on: February 11, 2012, 05:05:00 PM »

The problem w/ that conclusion is that 'some' capitalists NEVER have enough, they are NEVER satisfied, regardless of record profits or record production, especially when allowed to run wild with other peoples money and lives. 

We've just gone through nearly forty years of steadily increased production AND extreme increases in profits, with the profits mainly reaching those who already had plenty to begin with, corelating perfectly with the stagnant wages and increased cost of living provided to the middle classes for almost the same amount of time. 

Go figure, heh?

Its not rocket science, as they say.

t
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« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2012, 01:07:04 AM »

... That's an apt description of the wealthy (especially those who simply inherit wealth)...

Oh, I suppose when you speak about those who simply inherit wealth that you are speaking about people like Franklin D Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy jr. John Kerrey, etc.  Remember the President is not proposing to sock it to the wealthy, meaning those who already posses great wealth like the three politicans mentioned above but the President is proposing to wear out those who earn more than what the President considers a politically correct sum by working hard, irregardless of what their current station in life is or what their past station in life has been.  Boy oh boy. 

I so wish people would bone up on the French Revolution and how the common man in late 18th Century France saw the trade unions and guiles in France and the rest of Europe for what they were, out of control corporations.  That is why most of the gill members and trade unionist went to the guillotine along with King Louie XVI and his Austrian wife Marie and it is the reason the industrial revolution took off.  We must be very very careful what we pine for T Beek, for our wishes may be granted and we never know wether to run or to applaud until it is to late to do the former.
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« Reply #159 on: February 12, 2012, 04:16:05 AM »

It took me a while to read through Ts treatise (the artist formally known as Thomas), but it was well worth the time.  T did a GREAT job of shining some light on the current state of affairs.  Unfortunately not everyone sees the light.  Maybe a good dose of T School would do them some good.  

Quote
The illegals from the south have a great work ethic too!
I would bet most bust their butts more in one year than a top 1%er does in a lifetime.  This illusion that the 1%ers deserve lower taxes and more benefits because they somehow worked harder than the rest of us is absurd.  

Quote
i consider it theft when poor performance is protected.
And yet the GOP supports the Wall Street Bankers?  I’m confused huh  

Quote
The problem w/ that conclusion is that 'some' capitalists NEVER have enough, they are NEVER satisfied, regardless of record profits or record production, especially when allowed to run wild with other peoples money and lives.
Ron Gettlefinger once said there is no amount of money that can satisfy their greed.  The problem we face today is runaway greed in the top 1%, not capitalism per se.  They simply want everything.  We’re headed back to the future of Standard Oil and the Rockefellers and Morgans.  

 applause applause applause For T : the artist formally known as Thomas
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