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Author Topic: The 99%  (Read 17342 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2012, 03:00:45 PM »

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Better yet; bring back the county workhouses and poor farms! 


not a bad idea to do a version of that.  even though FDR ran up the debt as never seen before...until now...at least we got something out of that because he did put people to work doing something.  i like your suggestion.  IF we are going to hand out money, at least make people work for it even if it's cleaning streets, and digging ditches.  of course, the ditch diggers union wouldn't like it much.....

why is it fair to give away tax payer money but it's not fair to expect those to whom it is given, to contribute?

wouldn't it be equally fair to have a flat tax that everyone paid?  that 47% might be a little more concerned about how tax money is spent if they had some skin in the game?

you still haven't explained how it's fair that 1/2 of us are expected to provide for the other 1/2?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #121 on: February 10, 2012, 03:18:59 PM »

Socialism: eg, TVA, CCC, WPA

sure, because extending a depression with government largess is always a good idea.  and tell me again...where does that government money come from?
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kathyp
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« Reply #122 on: February 10, 2012, 03:24:30 PM »

and yet, you keep coming down on the side of all this government largess!  i'm guessing you want the rich taxed more because you think it will be used to pay down the debt.  what has the government done so far that makes you think that's what they'll do with the money?  + the fact that you could take 100% of the money of the "rich" and not make a dent in the debt.

i am not willing to entertain any ideas of increasing revenue to the government through taxation, until the government shows that they will control spending. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #123 on: February 10, 2012, 03:25:36 PM »

Ahhh, I think I'm beginning to understand where kathyp is coming from  Undecided  

I fear this view is off track though and rests on some kind of backward notion better left to the Dark Ages.

By 'producers' she can only mean the majority of working people, right?  

I think kathyp puts Capital  ahead of Labor and that wrongheadedness will trip up anyone when discussing these issues, when the fact Capital would not/ could not exist w/out Labor FIRST.

I mean kathyp must mean those folks that actually get up, go to work and 'produce' things (including the labor required to produce a clean house or manicured garden for someone else, ..etc), not just those folks producing money, right?  

kathyp has made my point;  she asks "why is it fair to give away tax payer money but its not fair to expect those to it is given to contribute."  We can only assume that kathyp doesn't believe we have such a thing as corporate entitlements and welfare for the rich, used to rob tax payers blind while blaming those less fortunate for their problems.  Its all making since now  rolleyes

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« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 04:54:44 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2012, 03:42:08 PM »

fine, then tax the 47% who pay no federal tax and who suck up most of the resources.

Why not charge then a fee on sucking up the resources?
Why do we need to take the result of productive work?
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boca
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« Reply #125 on: February 10, 2012, 03:48:03 PM »

he fact Capital would not/ could not exist w/out Labor FIRST.

This statement is true in the reality and in classical economics: the factors of production are LAND (all natural resources), LABOR and CAPITAL (result of labor)

In the modern corrupted economics LAND is merged into CAPITAL and that messes up everything. So we have "CAPITAL" which is not created by anybody but owned and charged for by some.
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kathyp
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« Reply #126 on: February 10, 2012, 03:49:30 PM »

T you have it backward.  there is no need for labor without capitol.  a gardener or housekeeper does not work for free.  they must be paid, even if you don't think what they are paid is enough...who will pay them?  no business can hire someone without the funds to pay.  capitol first.  labor because of it.

even for the entrepreneur trying to start something new, they must have capitol.  if they are successful, they create the need for labor.  the exception would be government make-work programs like FDRs.  then they don't need their own capitol, they can rely on theft from others.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #127 on: February 10, 2012, 04:49:18 PM »

So enlighten us then kathyp.  Where do 'you' think capital comes from?  Out of thin air perhaps?  rolleyes  This should be good people  grin if she provides an answer.  (just wait, she'll ignore this completely)

You'd do better to pay attention to boca kathyp, he's speaking some plain truth, the 'original' truth.  

The truth too many of us have long forgotten, but must be awakened to AGAIN  Smiley .

thomas
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 06:16:15 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #128 on: February 10, 2012, 05:21:43 PM »

We always hear corporate entitlements and corporate welfare.If it exists it has produced more jobs than social welfare.
Explain these,they are good catch phrases.
Unless we are talking Solyndra and such.
Stock owners pay taxes on dividends that companies pay after the corporate taxes. So watch where you go with it.
And you have to remember a corporations first obligations are to the stockholders. Not the government,not the employees.
They only ever through the numbers on profits a corporation makes,never on how much said corporation invests of their own money(called assuming risk) to make the profits.
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« Reply #129 on: February 10, 2012, 05:28:04 PM »

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What I think is fair is if the lower half could earn enough for their labors they wouldn't have to live off the other half.

how much would that be?  what is the end game? equality?  what is a fair wage?

I don't have the answer to your questions except a "living" wage. Why do folks think it's fair for high profit corps to pay below living wages and make the taxpayers pick up the slack. You sound like you think all people on government assistance are lazy and sit around doing nothing. Actually most are the working poor.
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« Reply #130 on: February 10, 2012, 05:45:46 PM »

A corporation offers a pay rate. You always have the freedom to leave. They pay what people are willing to work for. If you see two identical items on a shelf,do you buy the most expensive one?
You have to make yourself a marketable item. I know a lot of people who do not strive to improve their own situation,they would rather someone did it for them.
It always amazes me that people with ample "paid' time off every year would not be willing to give some of that up for better pay. Sometimes it is peoples own fault for settling for what they get.
 How many people do you know that would take a lower paying job to not have to drive 25 miles for a substantial pay difference? I know many.
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kathyp
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« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2012, 06:54:44 PM »

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I don't have the answer to your questions except a "living" wage. Why do folks think it's fair for high profit corps to pay below living wages and make the taxpayers pick up the slack. You sound like you think all people on government assistance are lazy and sit around doing nothing. Actually most are the working poor.

you can't define the thing you want?  how can you get it?
 i don't think that everyone who is on assistance is lazy.  i do think that government assistance has done more to promote generational laziness than anything else.  it rewards poor choices and takes away motivation to improve ones life. 

i have bored people with the story of my renters, but i'll do it again.  they are nice people with nice kids.  they both work and they work hard.  i like them.  however....they get food stamps.  in the garbage weekly are pizza boxes because they can buy take and bake with food stamps.  on the occasion that one of the kids got sick and the oldest was baby sitting, i went to care for the sick one until mom got home.  i wanted to get some fluids into the child.  all that was available was pop and Koolaid.
  they get heating assistance.  they keep the house over 70 degrees and the kids run around in short and barefoot because it's so warm in there.  they get free state medical.  the youngest needed glasses.  she broke 4 pair in a couple of months time because she didn't like them.  there's more...but you get the idea.  rarely do i get the rent on time because they are out of money...yet there is new play equipment in the backyard.

the father had 3 children out of wedlock before marriage and three more after.  neither parent has any job skills and apparently no plans to get any.  why should they?  other than the rent, which is below market as it is, everything in their life is subsidized.  she's looking forward to her tax rebate.  since there is no tax right now for SSI, etc. she has paid no federal income tax.  she will get money anyway because she'll get earned income credit and all the deductions that come with having kids...even though she has nothing from which to deduct those things.  in essence, she'll get a tax payer funded bonus.  his "refund" will be taken to pay all the years of back child support that he skipped on, so that is tax payer funded also.  we who do pay our taxes are funding past and present irresponsible behavior. 



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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2012, 07:08:52 PM »

ok, tbeek has demanded your attention. 

cave man A and cave man B were out hunting, as they did 8 hours every day.  cave man A said "look B, this hunting thing would be easier if we put sharp rocks on our spears.  i know where to get the rocks and i know how to make them sharp, but i can't spend time doing it if i have to hunt every day.  if you will provide food and firs for me so that i can make sharp rocks, i'll pay you back with the sharp rocks for your spear and if others buy my sharp rocks with food and firs, i'll pay you back with a % of that too".  cave man B thinks it sounds like a pretty good idea, so he says yes.

pretty soon, cave man A is making so many sharp rock spear tips that not only has he paid back cave man B, but he has hired cave man Bs son to  make sharp rocks also.  so many people are paying him with food and firs that he decides to start and food and fir trading business and hires Bs daughter to manage it.  meanwhile, cave man B doesn't have to work so hard because he's getting part of the return from As business.  this gives him time to sit around and play with stick....and one day...he discovers fire!!

soon A is know as Ugg, maker of pointy rock spear tips and is honored throughout the land.  of course, the elders take note.  they notice that Ugg and B have an obscene amount of food and firs and demand that they "share"....... 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2012, 07:23:01 PM »

I think I'll invent the square wheel so it's equal for all sides!!
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« Reply #134 on: February 10, 2012, 07:36:01 PM »

The notion here is that there is a finite amount or wealth. If this were the case,the only way to become wealthy is to be born into it. As a society becomes more productive,the wealth available to be gained by others goes up.
Evidently many people do not realize the standard of living, aka individual wealth, is far above what it was 50 years ago. How many of our poor have cell phones? How many have multiple cars? And how many have the ever given  right of PC's ,laptops and a couple tv's in the home? This has been because of the rise in individual wealth.
 But wait,it is the economy of scale and desire of profits of those evil corporations that have made what could be considered big ticket items affordable to those who really can't.
It surprises me the people angry at corporations seem to not be so p'od at corporations like Microsoft,Apple and GM.  Don't say it's because they provide jobs,because every other corporation does too.
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« Reply #135 on: February 10, 2012, 07:39:53 PM »

Tbeek, if you actually think my post #109 is about college tuition or kids allowance, PLEASE, go back to the college you attended and demand your money back. It was a bigger waste than Obummers solyndra.
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« Reply #136 on: February 10, 2012, 07:40:38 PM »

Look,new millionaires:
If the rich already had all the money,how could we possibly get more rich people? And why did the rich allow these newcomers to take some of their wealth?
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/16/news/economy/millionaires/index.htm
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« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2012, 07:41:36 PM »

Lets disagree politely guys!
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« Reply #138 on: February 10, 2012, 08:12:35 PM »

Kathy, Your post makes me want to drop my pointed stick and refi my cave so that I too may use a spear with a sharp rock!

Scott
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kathyp
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« Reply #139 on: February 10, 2012, 08:33:56 PM »

you need not refi.  just take Ugg some firs and food!  fire is already discovered, but maybe you can suggest that Ugg go into the axe business and you all can get out of that cave!   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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