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Author Topic: The 99%  (Read 15584 times)
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« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2011, 02:41:56 AM »

"Just the opposite, there were thousands with a good complaint and a few that were engaging in criminal behavior. And all there really is to complain about is that everyone should pay there fair share of taxes. The rich shouldn't have to pay for everyone else, just their share.
People like you love to label everyone communist or socialist when all they really want is to eliminate greed. Tax cuts for the wealthy don't provide jobs, if it did, there wouldn't be an "Occupy" to talk about."

I agree and disagree.  First of all I am at complete odds with the whole tax system in the first place because we (our government) should not be borrowing money from the fed, congress is the one that is supposed to print (coin) money, not a corporation for profit (the federal reserve system)

Second I dont believe in taxing those who dont make enough to live without assistance like food stamps, housing assistance, health care assistance, etc.  This to me is absurd.  I dont care what anyone says, to me, we like any other expense a company holds does not get taxed until there is a profit.  So if a companies expenses out weight there income they claim a loss.  So if you look at employees in this sense, until they can maintain their self and their families (eat, house, cloth, healthcare, transportation, ect) there is no profit or actual income.  Yet they are taxed.  It may be argued that some are not when you figure out their returns each year but all in all taxing them in the first place is nonsense.  Most american like myself actually work to simply maintain themselves.  Corporations literal pay employees as little as they can which usually works out to just enough to pay rent, eat, ....... and we end up just another piece of equipment or expense in the accounting department.  They will not pay another cent in salary until they cant keep production running smoothly.

Our country used to obtain most of its tax base from tariffs on imported goods and we need to return to this way.  It worked very well before and it provided great incentive to produce goods here and kept jobs here.  The only reason our country still prospers as much as it does today is because the US dollar is the worlds main currency.  If it were not, the reality of more imports than exports would set in and we all would be in the poor house.  America will have to wake up from this dream sooner or later and reality will not be pretty.

Many will laugh at this and call me a nut case but just because we are the United States of Americana does not mean we are not susceptible to financial chaos.
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« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2011, 08:41:35 AM »

come on now, scads.  when the 47% protest and ask for stuff, they are asking for their fair share. it's not greed to take what the "wealthy" have earned.  where did you go to school anyway??
Sorry, i'm so ignorant...  I don't have the benefits of the public education system.  My silly parents slaved their whole lives and sacrificed all the cool stuff to send me to a private christian school.  What a bunch of nincompoops. 

 grin
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« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2011, 10:16:41 AM »

Quote
Second I dont believe in taxing those who dont make enough to live without assistance like food stamps, housing assistance, health care assistance, etc.  This to me is absurd.  I dont care what anyone says, to me, we like any other expense a company holds does not get taxed until there is a profit.  So if a companies expenses out weight there income they claim a loss.  So if you look at employees in this sense, until they can maintain their self and their families (eat, house, cloth, healthcare, transportation, ect) there is no profit or actual income.  Yet they are taxed.  It may be argued that some are not when you figure out their returns each year but all in all taxing them in the first place is nonsense

here are the problems i see with your argument on taxes.  1.  these people vote.  they make decisions about what is done with tax  money and have not vested interest in anything but getting more of it.
2.  by what standard do we decide whether people can care for themselves?  i am about to do an eviction  notice on my renters.  after a year of hoping they'd get it together, i see pizza boxes in the trash again and have no rent.  they get every form of public assistance known to man.  it is not my job to make sure they are fed and have a home.  it is my job to make the payment on the home they are renting.  i can't do that if they don't pay the rent.
3.  define profit in family terms?  most of us don't make a profit.  we make enough to do what we need to do, and some of what we want to do.  we make CHOICES so that the needs are met. 

i don't want to see people starving in the street, but i think that when you get to 47% of the population that supposedly is so poor they can't contribute, you have either made an error in calculations, or something is systemically wrong with your population.....or both.   + i'm looking at the OWS bunch and being reminded....We are the sum total of the choices we make. 
am i responsible for your bad choices?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2011, 07:39:40 PM »

I see a lot of protesters carrying signs calling for "free" this or "free" that. There is nothing free. Some one pays for it.As far as corporations paying taxes,it need not be done at all levels. I am part owner of  a couple of corporations.I am a stockholder. I get a dividend on after tax earnings of said corporations.
And this dividend is taxed as income to me even though my investment was made with,you guessed it ,after tax dollars from my regular job.
  Take the profit from investment risk away,the corporations will go away. The tax system in this country has been one of the driving forces for corporations moving their operations off shore.
What little I invest has created a much better return than my tax dollars.If I could have stuffed 15 percent of every check I earned in a can in the backyard,It surely would be a better nest egg than Social Security will ever be.
 If people are truly worried about greed,perhaps they should start with their government.They do not have the liberty of with holding the investment there.
I think if the federal government were funded by the states instead of directly from the individuals and the money had to go up the ladder instead of down,reform would happen at a much faster pace.
 The people at these protests probably represent the nine percent,not the 99 percent.If these people can find the means to stay at these sites ,they can support themselves.Don't ask the companies I might  invest in for a handout.
If they would put this much effort into their personal lives instead of trying to get their fifteen minutes of fame,perhaps the economy would begin to function as it should.Being non productive is a drain on everybody else.
  
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BlevinsBees
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« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2011, 09:52:16 PM »

Middle and lower class Republicans are brainwashed. When are you going to realize you're being screwed? Your party isn't looking out for you. When you have folks like Warren Buffet saying that it's not fair that he doesn't pay taxes and you do, think about that.

http://news.yahoo.com/millionaires-capitol-hill-please-tax-more-222330131.html
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« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2011, 10:05:28 PM »

we are being screwed.  we are being screwed by 47% of the population not paying their fair share.  we are being screwed by an ever growing public sector work force that we don't need and can't afford.  we are being screwed by an admin that shows disdain for this country and what makes this country work.

there is nothing that keeps those millionaires from paying more if they wish.  i bet every one of them has accountants and money managers who take advantage of every single way for them to pay less tax.  this is a disingenuous argument made by people who have no idea what they pay or to whom because someone else does it for them....or they are experiencing some form of money guilt....

if they are really worried, they can write a check to the govt.  they can give their money away.  by what right do the seek to have the money of others who don't agree with them, taken?
by what leap of twisted logic does anyone come to the conclusion that it's a good idea to give more money to a government that has wasted so much and mismanaged so much?

conservatives do not believe that their future is, or should be, in the hands of the government.  we know that wherever we are in life we are only limited by our ambition and our choices....as long as the government is not standing in the way and taking our earnings.

you seem to feel that your salvation is in the government.  good luck with that.  after all, it has worked so well up to this point. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2011, 10:37:37 PM »

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare
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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2011, 11:33:04 PM »

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare
Is that a muslim rabbit or something?
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« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2011, 08:52:45 AM »

Middle and lower class Republicans are brainwashed. When are you going to realize you're being screwed? Your party isn't looking out for you. When you have folks like Warren Buffet saying that it's not fair that he doesn't pay taxes and you do, think about that.

http://news.yahoo.com/millionaires-capitol-hill-please-tax-more-222330131.html


And yet people keep swallowing that warren buffet crap like a bunch of brainwashed sheep.  Baa! Baa!  I pay more taxes than warren buffet! Baa! Baa!  Warren pays less than his secretary!! Baa!

I'm really really sick of hearing that.  GO AHEAD AND GOOGLE IT!  <--there, I made it easy for you

Warren Buffett is going to die in the next few years.  He's OLD.  And he doesn't have anybody to give it to.  He's probably bitter at the younger generation for being young, and this is the last bit of revenge he's foisting on them before he dies.  Ok, that's just my snarky commentary... evil  If he really meant it he'd just give his money to the government, there's no law against that.  But he knows it would just get wasted.  He uses all the tax loopholes everybody else uses.
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« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2011, 09:31:00 AM »

we are being screwed.  we are being screwed by 47% of the population not paying their fair share.  we are being screwed by an ever growing public sector work force that we don't need and can't afford.  we are being screwed by an admin that shows disdain for this country and what makes this country work.

there is nothing that keeps those millionaires from paying more if they wish.  i bet every one of them has accountants and money managers who take advantage of every single way for them to pay less tax.  this is a disingenuous argument made by people who have no idea what they pay or to whom because someone else does it for them....or they are experiencing some form of money guilt....

...

conservatives do not believe that their future is, or should be, in the hands of the government.  we know that wherever we are in life we are only limited by our ambition and our choices....as long as the government is not standing in the way and taking our earnings.

...



Much better said than I am capable, but well worth repeating the parts I included, as you hit the ole nail on the proverbial head.

The age of entitlement.........
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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2011, 02:50:54 PM »

Warren Buffet bitter?  LOL.  You’ve got to be kidding me?  Have you have seen any interviews with Buffet over the years?  He comes across as the most relaxed, kindest old guy you can imagine.  I see no bitterness, just honest patriotic analysis of the tax code; a system where the little guys and gals pay a much higher rate than the top 1% and the corporations.  It’s comical how the Republicans focus on the need to tax families living in poverty while keeping completely mum about major companies like GE paying ZERO taxes.     

30 large and profitable American corporations paid ZERO income taxes 2008 through 2010: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Thirty-companies-paid-no-US-rb-1056284259.html?x=0&.v=3

I’m going to have to concede our Republican friends are right on one point; our economy is now socialist as the Patriotic Millionaires state:

“America is no longer based on markets and capitalism, instead our economy is designed as 'socialism for the rich' – it is designed to ensure that the wealthiest people take all of the gains, while regular Americans cover any losses,"

"It's a Las Vegas economy where regular Americans put their money on the table and the richest 1 percent own the house.  And if the 1 percent happen to lose money, the 99 percent bails them out – covers their losses and then stands by watching while the house does it all over again."

http://news.yahoo.com/patriotic-millionaires-beg-supercommittee-higher-taxes-185620525.html

Now come on friends, pull your heads out of the sand and BREATH. grin
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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2011, 03:17:22 PM »

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It’s comical how the Republicans focus on the need to tax families living in poverty while keeping completely mum about major companies like GE paying ZERO taxes.  


actually, it's the republicans that are continually trying to revise the tax code. to get rid of all the loop holes and the write offs.  i am entirely in favor of doing this even though it will probably mean i pay more in taxes...even if my tax rate is lowered to 20%.  


Quote
instead our economy is designed as 'socialism for the rich' – it is designed to ensure that the wealthiest people take all of the gains, while regular Americans cover any losses,"

that's  incorrect. fascism  is the home of crony capitalism.  socialism is the home of redistribution from the "wealthy" to the "poor".  we have both going on.  again...fix the tax code and you can fix both problems.

Quote
"It's a Las Vegas economy where regular Americans put their money on the table and the richest 1 percent own the house.  And if the 1 percent happen to lose money, the 99 percent bails them out – covers their losses and then stands by watching while the house does it all over again."


this only happens when the government is involved in picking winners and losers though bailouts.  if you allow the system to work, the company fails, but the tax payer is on the hook for nothing.  this is how it is supposed to work.  private investors take risk.  they are rewarded if the company does well.  they lose if the company fails.  
instead, we have things like GM, where the government has taken our tax dollars and lost it.  our government has become a venture capitol company with tax dollars.

sounds to me like you are in the wrong party?

BTW....show me poverty in the US.  we don't even know what it is in this country.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2011, 06:46:17 PM »

<It’s comical how the Republicans focus on the need to tax families living in poverty while keeping completely mum about major companies like GE paying ZERO taxes.

Whats comical is you not realizing who G.E. is in bed with. evil And you must not realize how much money G.E. got from our Govt. after the bed partner got elected.
Just one little clue, it was not the Rep. party.
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« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2011, 07:27:06 PM »

Actually, yes, all the income that GE makes gets taxed.  Simple accounting.  See if you can figure it out yourself.

Hint: it may not be while it is still in GE's pockets.  But soon thereafter.

And it would really suck if it did get taxed while still in its pockets.  Because then if I incorporated a small business, that business would get taxed on its receipts, and then when I paid myself it would get taxed again.  Which is why it is really disingenuous and misleading to say that GE pays no income tax, just like it is really disingenuous to say that Warren Buffet pays less taxes than his secretary.
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« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2011, 01:07:52 AM »

Wow, people forgot their history already…..

GE got a bailout to the tune of about 88 billion thru the FDIC TLG Program created by Republican hero George Dubya on Oct 13, 2008.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Liquidity_Guarantee_Program
http://seekingalpha.com/article/105984-general-electric-gets-a-140b-bailout-what-s-the-point-of-aaa

Yeah, the GE execs made bad bets, all the while paying themselves 100’s of millions in bonuses.  But when their Vegas bets went bad, was ANY exec at GE held accountable?  No, of course not!  They’re only responsible for the wins, not the losses.

So they went crawling to Bush for a bailout.  Bush had no problem throwing tax payer (99%ers) money at the Banks (1%ers) to cover their Vegas losses.  Bush also changed the Mark to Market accounting rules allowing them to cook the books to hide the losses they were really sitting on so their stock prices (and bonus $$ options) wouldn’t tank to $0.  LOL, “simple accounting” Scads  Smiley  

In layman’s’ terms, we 99%ers covered the losses of the 1%ers so the %1ers didn’t lose their money and power.  It’s socialism for the top 1%.  

Meanwhile over 1 in 5 American children now live in poverty…….
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« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2011, 09:03:38 AM »

What is poverty?

I've lived in "poverty" with my kids but have never lived in poverty.  We called it "working hard to build something for ourselves".

I don't get it why everybody is all of a sudden so angry at the bailouts.  They happened almost 4 years ago!!  The teaparty was complaining about them WHEN THEY HAPPENED!!  I was against any bailouts then as were most fiscal conservatives, but everybody kept yelling "too big to fail!!".

I guess occupiers are just a little slow....or this isn't about bailouts.  Or even wallstreet.  The proletariat just need an enemy.

Anything happening with GE is happening NOW with the CURRENT ADMINISTRATION!!  Current loopholes.

I honestly have no idea what corporate tax laws are.  But it seems to me to tax corporate income is to double tax because that any extra "income" goes back to employees as bonuses, or to stock holders as dividends, and those are both taxed as income.

The only person I heard agitating against GE recently was a Republican.  Maybe they should listen to him and close GE's loopholes?
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« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2011, 10:13:24 AM »

that FDIC program was not a direct loan program.  it was a loan grantee program.  perhaps a distinction without a difference, but in the interest of clarity....
and i agree with your, it is a horrible idea for the government to stand behind a loan taken by a private company.  just as it is a horrible idea for the government to stand behind our private money that we put in banks.  but....i thought your problem with GE was that they didn't pay taxes?



Mean
Quote
while over 1 in 5 American children now live in poverty…….

BS
only because they keep "cooking the books" on what constitutes poverty. 

my children were also raised in poverty.  they never missed a meal.  they made it to school.  they were clean and properly dressed.  they didn't eat 3 meals a day at tax payer expense....

they also didn't have a (the BIG thing at the time) Nintendo, we didn't have cable.  we ate a lot of chicken parts and dented can stuff.  we shared one car.....
you seem to think poverty is a disease to be avoided.  i think it is a temporary condition to motivate success.  Wink  in order to be a good motivation, it needs to be experienced.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2011, 10:46:17 AM »

interesting that the left always resorts to BUSH DID IT.  listen to those of us who are conservatives......WE DON'T CARE WHO DID IT.   it's wrong.  it was wrong 4 years ago.  it's wrong now.  it's not a party thing.  it's a country thing. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2011, 02:06:14 PM »

Yeah, I agree with you all that the bailouts are water under the bridge.  What I find very disappointing is that Congress hasn’t closed down these loop holes that allow companies and 1%ers to pay much less that we 99%ers.  It’s still welfare for the rich on everybody else’s back.  It’s not only Bush’s fault, it is Obama’s too.  Obama has been too much like a Republican. 

Since little has changed, I would bet if 2008 were to occur all over again Congress would do the SAME thing all over again.  I can see Geithner up there right now arguing bank XYZ are really “too big to fail”.  Corruption tends to repeat itself.
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« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2011, 02:30:57 PM »

Quote
Yeah, I agree with you all that the bailouts are water under the bridge.  What I find very disappointing is that Congress hasn’t closed down these loop holes that allow companies and 1%ers to pay much less that we 99%ers.  It’s still welfare for the rich on everybody else’s back.

since the majority of the federal tax burden is born by the so called wealthy, and considering that it is the liberals who block tax reform, this point is not valid.
since almost 1/2 of your 99% don't pay federal taxes, and in fact some get more back than they would have paid, i'm not sure why you think anyone should have any sympathy. 
if your 99% (which is not) were out there working instead of crapping in the park, they might have a different outlook.

since Obama has engaged in crony capitalism in a way that has never been seen in this country, he's hardly acting like a conservative, although i'll give you that he's acting like some liberal republicans.

you really need to get over this party stuff.  it's not about republicans and democrats.  it's about liberals and conservatives.  liberals want to take what others have earned and give it to those who have not.  it's pretty simple.  it doesn't matter if the non-earners are individuals or corporations.  they still want to give to favorites who will advance their agenda....or vote for them.

if you want something fair, we need a flat tax that everyone pays at the same rate.  everyone. 

Quote
Since little has changed, I would bet if 2008 were to occur all over again Congress would do the SAME thing all over again.  I can see Geithner up there right now arguing bank XYZ are really “too big to fail”.  Corruption tends to repeat itself.

while i do not agree with the bank bailouts...even though i understand the moment that caused them to happen....there is a difference between the bank bailouts and other money shoveled out the door.  the banks paid the money back with interest. 

companies like GM, the green companies, GE, didn't. Fannie and Freddie, darlings of the left, are still asking for more.
the bank bailouts were done because, at the time, the money people believed they could avert a disaster by keeping the banks from failing.   the company bailouts were done for the sake of the unions.  then there are all the bailouts to the cities and states.  another mistake. 


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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