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Author Topic: The 99%  (Read 16992 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2011, 05:08:29 PM »

What blows my mind about bee keepers opposing the OWS movement is WHY do you (and the Republicans) support the current tax system with much lower tax rates for the billionaires than for the other 315 million citizens?  It is patently unfair.  I know there is a lot of money in bee keeping, but is everybody on here in the top 1%?

The top 0.1% of the country are making 50% of the capital gains in this country as reported by Forbes.  http://news.yahoo.com/top-0-1-nation-earn-half-capital-gains-172647859.html

Those gains are taxed at 15% as per Bush’s tax give away to the super rich.  The rest of us are taxed at 25% or 28% on our regular income (depending on your bracket).  Yes there are deductions as Scads points out, but the big dogs have those to.  They still end up paying lower rates than the rest of us.  

As the Forbes article says, it is Bush’s low capital gains tax give away that promoted the transfer of wealth from the 99% to the 1%.  When money is transferred from one group of people to another through government action, what do you all call that?  Come on, you remember.  Hint, it starts with a C.

How is this fair?
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iddee
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« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2011, 06:14:50 PM »

We don't support it. We take the better of two evils.

The republican evil..... Take from all and give to the rich, who actually make production possible.

The democrat evil...... Take from all and give to the do nothings who will never do anything.

When you only have those two choices, we feel that the only one that can sustain life is the republican evil. We would like to sustain life until we can get some changes made.
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« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2011, 06:34:19 PM »

Quote
What blows my mind about bee keepers opposing the OWS movement is WHY do you (and the Republicans) support the current tax system with much lower tax rates for the billionaires than for the other 315 million citizens?  It is patently unfair.  I know there is a lot of money in bee keeping, but is everybody on here in the top 1%?


that's not accurate.  can't express an opinion on faulty data.

i don't support the current tax system.  i have told you.  i support a flat tax the everyone pays.  rich, poor, and in between.

Quote
The top 0.1% of the country are making 50% of the capital gains in this country as reported by Forbes.  http://news.yahoo.com/top-0-1-nation-earn-half-capital-gains-172647859.html


capitol gains are made on investment.  they have the money to risk, so they make the money when those risks pay off. 

Quote
Those gains are taxed at 15% as per Bush’s tax give away to the super rich.  The rest of us are taxed at 25% or 28% on our regular income (depending on your bracket).  Yes there are deductions as Scads points out, but the big dogs have those to.  They still end up paying lower rates than the rest of us. 


you are confusing capitol gains and income.  capitol gains is money made on investment.  that money has already been taxed as income before it is invested, or has been re-invested without profit being taken. 

Quote
As the Forbes article says, it is Bush’s low capital gains tax give away that promoted the transfer of wealth from the 99% to the 1%.  When money is transferred from one group of people to another through government action, what do you all call that?  Come on, you remember.  Hint, it starts with a C.


i doubt that's what the article said.  that's how you read it.  the tax cuts actually raised the income tax for the wealthy and lowered it for the  middle class.  it lowered the capitol gains tax. that's why obama/democrats wouldn't get rid of the tax cuts.  it would have had a far greater impact on the middle class than on the wealthy.  in fact, a wealthy person who only got his wealth from income, would see an income tax cut.

there are a couple of reasons for keeping capitol gains taxes lower.  one is that the income used to make the investment is already taxed at the higher rate.  another is that those who invest, and this includes businesses, tend to keep investing.  the more they can make the more they will invest and risk.  that's how business get much of it's investment capitol.  they offer stock, people buy it, the business has  money to invest in itself, and....if the business does well, the investor makes a profit.  of course, if the business doesn't do well, the investor loses his money. poor people don't take those kinds of risks.  they buy lottery tickets instead.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2011, 07:24:50 PM »

there are a couple of reasons for keeping capitol gains taxes lower.  one is that the income used to make the investment is already taxed at the higher rate.  another is that those who invest, and this includes businesses, tend to keep investing.  the more they can make the more they will invest and risk.  that's how business get much of it's investment capitol.  they offer stock, people buy it, the business has  money to invest in itself, and....if the business does well, the investor makes a profit.  of course, if the business doesn't do well, the investor loses his money. poor people don't take those kinds of risks.  they buy lottery tickets instead.

 lau

How true and well said.

Steve
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sterling
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« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2011, 07:28:43 PM »

Sterling, I bet we agree on this one Smiley  The CEOs at Freddie and Fannie should be behind bars and those two enterprises should be shut down.

 applause applause
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« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2011, 08:42:51 AM »

there are a couple of reasons for keeping capitol gains taxes lower.  one is that the income used to make the investment is already taxed at the higher rate.  another is that those who invest, and this includes businesses, tend to keep investing.  the more they can make the more they will invest and risk.  that's how business get much of it's investment capitol.  they offer stock, people buy it, the business has  money to invest in itself, and....if the business does well, the investor makes a profit.  of course, if the business doesn't do well, the investor loses his money. poor people don't take those kinds of risks.  they buy lottery tickets instead.

 lau

How true and well said.

Steve
....and sad.
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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2011, 08:51:14 AM »

What do you mean by much lower tax rates?  There may be some exceptions, but I'm very sure that the top 1% pays a higher rate than the 75%.

The people that get screwed are the ones in the 85-99% category.  And they aren't the ones on OWS.  From what I've seen, the majority of the people in OWS are in the bottom 20%.

Interesting tidbit, though....I'm pretty sure my brotherinlaw is in that category.  Rather than get hit with higher taxes he bought some rentals, fixed them up and rented them out.  He's not alone in that right now.

So...is that a loophole so a rich jerk can avoid paying taxes and helping out the masses, or is that an entrepreneurial fellow using a vehicle for investment that the government provided?
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« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2011, 09:18:33 AM »

i honestly don't think the left understands the mechanisms for wealth generation.  they also think the there is one pot of money with a finite amount in it.  if one person is rich, they have made another poor by taking to much out of the pot.

this is a failure of education.  the school systems and parents have failed to teach children economics, and the difference in systems.  in addition, we have raised several generations to believe that the government is the best vehicle for repair....of anything.

is it any wonder there are herds of the lost milling about in parks insisting that someone DO SOMETHING?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2011, 10:17:56 AM »

Quote
I know there is a lot of money in bee keeping, but is everybody on here in the top 1%?

this flashed through my brain in the middle of the night.   Wink

you assume that only the wealthy would support keeping money from the government?  i would guess that most on here do not fit into even the revised category of wealthy.
 
we do recognize that the government is not the place to invest and expect a good return on our investment. we recognize that more government means less freedom.  most of all, we recognize that capitalism works. capitalism is not a function of the government.  it is the function and engine of private sector success.  the more the government regulates and takes from the private sector, the less opportunity there is in the private sector to engage in capitalism. the more money the government is given, the more opportunity it takes to regulate and interfere. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2011, 12:13:54 PM »

And to add to Kathy's statement:
I have a small struggling construction company. We started struggling as soon as O was elected. When we were making some money the employees were getting bonuses, vacations, 60% paid health care for their families and other benefits. Because of the economic situation I had to layoff twentytwo employees. Some were on salaries.
I said all that to say, that when the federal govt. takes money away from companies, and the so called rich, in the form of taxes. The companies can't use that money to give benefits to their employees. They can't give raises, they in many cases have to lay people off, ect.
All of that takes disposable money out of the peoples hands [They can't buy things]. It starts at the top and goes down.
Also they don't have the money after taxes to invest in their company. They are now afraid of the tremendous regulations put on businesses by this outfit in control in Washington.
Working people don't get their money out of that big pot that the liberals think is out there. They work for it and deserve to keep most of it. And spread it as they see fit.
IT"S THEIR MONEY not the GOVERNMENTS.
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« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2011, 12:19:09 PM »

And to add to Kathy's statement:
I have a small struggling construction company. We started struggling as soon as O was elected. When we were making some money the employees were getting bonuses, vacations, 60% paid health care for their families and other benefits. Because of the economic situation I had to layoff twentytwo employees. Some were on salaries.
I said all that to say, that when the federal govt. takes money away from companies, and the so called rich, in the form of taxes. The companies can't use that money to give benefits to their employees. They can't give raises, they in many cases have to lay people off, ect.
All of that takes disposable money out of the peoples hands [They can't buy things]. It starts at the top and goes down.
Also they don't have the money after taxes to invest in their company. They are now afraid of the tremendous regulations put on businesses by this outfit in control in Washington.
Working people don't get their money out of that big pot that the liberals think is out there. They work for it and deserve to keep most of it. And spread it as they see fit.
IT"S THEIR MONEY not the GOVERNMENTS.

It is a shame that so few understand this.
Jim
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« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2011, 07:11:13 PM »

Most of the risk takers understand it. The government is not there to offset losses in unsuccessful endeavors,( unless it's to the buy union votes,e.g. GM and Chrysler)but are there to tax the fruitful ones.
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« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2011, 07:29:07 PM »

You can't tax the fruitful ones.   There is nothing to take from them.  That is why they take from the successful ones.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2011, 07:49:24 PM »

Iddee was right.  The rest of you need to do some homework. 
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« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2011, 11:47:26 AM »

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/31/protester-defends-flag-burning-at-occupy-charlotte/

Of course, since the bad publicity, OWS is now claiming they have no connection with this group.  rolleyes
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American blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world.  320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror".  Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA.  But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev
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« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2012, 06:28:04 PM »

What do you mean by much lower tax rates?  There may be some exceptions, but I'm very sure that the top 1% pays a higher rate than the 75%.

Once again, when we listen to the real facts from people in the know, we can learn how the world REALLY works.

“I do fault a law that allows him (Romney) and me earning enormous sums to pay overall federal taxes at a rate that's about half what the average person in my office pays."   Warren Buffet.   http://finance.yahoo.com/news/buffett-blames-congress-romneys-15-155000898.html

The argument some on here make that capital gains should not be taxed as normal income for these 1%ers because “it has already been taxed once” is ridiculous.  These guys make money by moving money around, NOT by “investing” money from a day time job!  Why should the 1%ers get to pay at a rate of 15% for moving money around all day when the rest of us have to pay at a much higher rate for what we do all day?

Whom is going to refute Warren Buffet’s knowledge of the tax rates?
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« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2012, 08:54:41 PM »

why would i take advice on paying more taxes from a man who has sheltered much of his wealth in a non-profit?  if he really felt the government was the best place to send his money, he wouldn't have done that.

lets say you have your way and dividends are taxed at the higher rate.  that's not only the so called wealthy, but granny and grandpas retirement investments...but that's ok. 

what would be the benefit of doing that?

don't rush to answer.  i'll be gone doing flood stuff the next few days so i don't know if i'll get at a computer.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2012, 09:32:39 AM »

None of us should ever doubt that the goal of 'keeping us divided' is key to keeping those most powerful among us permanently in power and in control of us.

We should never be fooled by the rhetoric we hear (because it sounds good).  Its how we are manipulated into 'blindly' doing the bidding of others against our own best interests.  An old tactic used for centuries by ruling elites.

We must always be diligent in our investigations, research and demands for TRUTH, always.  Even when it takes us to places that may be uncomfortable or challenging to previously held beliefs.  To do otherwise is nonhuman IMO, we may as well be cattle.

KNOW THIS TRUTH; This Country will NEVER have small government or a simple (or fair) tax system as long as Congress (all sides) and its real controllers (not us) depend on having a BIG Government w/ a complex tax system, regardless of what any of them say.  

The current GOP candidates or any politician really, who claims otherwise is very likely an entrenched part of the problem and also very likely benefiting from protecting the corrupt system their constituents sent them to DC to fix, not become a part of, IMO, just mine again Smiley.

Under the current corrupt system It is an essential part of the process to keep things as confusing (for the masses) as possible.  Our elected (pretty much all of them in DC) depend on the ability to persuade BIG checks out of those who have those kinds of dollars, and that's not 'we the people' by any stretch.  

Oh, don't get me wrong, they like our money, we the people just can't compete w/ the 'masters' dollars.

To change this broken system it will never be enough to just change parties or even candidates in some manipulated preordained election.  

Make no mistake my friends (and perceived enemies) grin These things are all selected for us long before we ever have a chance to voice an opinion.  It has become very much the 'American' way.

thomas
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« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2012, 09:42:26 AM »

Careful there, TBeek. You are making sense. Did you hire a ghost writer??  grin

Now, if we can just get you to quit being the divided and join us to change this mess, we might get somewhere.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2012, 11:58:34 AM »

I've always made sense iddee Wink

Maybe not to everyone, but sense non- the- less.  Alas, I've also spent a lot of time waiting for the majority to 'catch up' to me grin.

Creating petty (manufactured) divisions and keeping us divided for political/economic gains, therefore keeping us inept and incapable of making any meaningful change, can only be conquered w/ knowledge and a clear understanding of what we have in common.  True leaders always focus commonality, not divisions.

Ghost writer?  Wouldn't think of it.

thomas
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