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Author Topic: The 99%  (Read 16456 times)
T Beek
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« Reply #160 on: February 12, 2012, 07:57:46 AM »

Wow....thanks bluebee.  

I'm thrilled and happy to know someone could obsorb anothers viewpoint with a clear head on this thread.  I can't possibly place dots any closer for those who refuse to even debate the 'original' truths.  

Its become way too sacrilegious to challenge the status quo these days, even more so than during the 60's.   Our limp culture's general 'acceptance' of "this is the way its always been" (NO ITS NOT) so "its the way it'll always be" is pitiful.  America especially, despite all the complainer's, is still much too comfortable to do anything about the sad state we find ourselves, there's still too much money to be made I guess  rolleyes

As a culture I don't know how many steps we can continue to take backwards before we wake up as a 'third world' nation ourselves, at the bottom of some historical trash heap with the footnote...."America, she held such promise to the world, but like others, succumbed to their own greed in the end.

t
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:04:45 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #161 on: February 12, 2012, 08:35:36 AM »

>>That is why most of the gill members and trade unionist went to the guillotine along with King Louie XVI and his Austrian wife Marie and it is the reason the industrial revolution took off.

My Rooster's crowing makes the sun come up. evil
Are you sure it wasn't all that loot, taken from the top 1%?
If you want to take some thing from 'the reign of terror' it is:
 When the have nots, have enough of not having, they lose their heads FIGURATIVELY, unlike the haves.
 

>>i consider it theft when poor performance is protected.
And yet the GOP supports the Wall Street Bankers?  I’m confused   

 you want to talk about poor performance, what about trickle down economics?



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« Reply #162 on: February 12, 2012, 09:32:42 AM »

Watched "Moyer and company" on PBS last night;

Bill Moyer was interviewing Bruce Bartlett (one of the masterminds of Reganomics); Excerpt from website:
"Bartlett argues that right-wing tax policies — pushed in part by Grover Norquist and Tea Party activists — are destroying the country’s economic foundation. When he called George W. Bush out as “a pretend conservative” in his book Impostor: Why George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy, Bartlett was fired from his position as a senior fellow at a conservative think tank. His new book is The Benefit and the Burden: Tax Reform — Why We Need It and What It Will Take."

A Convert?

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boca
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« Reply #163 on: February 12, 2012, 09:56:08 AM »

 applause applause applause Well done Thomas!  applause applause applause
Keep explaining how our current system has to be fixed. So more and more people will understand it, and once a critical point reached the renters of kathyp will say:
 - Dear Landlord, the free lunch is finished. From now on we are citizens with equal rights. From now we keep what we make and we pay for what we take.

Here is another explanation of the current ongoing robbery. (and from where capital comes from)
TheIU.org - Robinson Crusoe
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kathyp
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« Reply #164 on: February 12, 2012, 09:57:48 AM »

Quote
This illusion that the 1%ers deserve lower taxes and more benefits because they somehow worked harder than the rest of us is absurd.
  


i'm not sure what "deserve" means.  i think people deserve to keep what they own, no matter how they came to it.  i think the country deserves to expect that everyone will contribute to sucess through labor, and since we insist on doing it, though paying their taxes.  i don't think that the majority of the country should expect that they deserve to have the majority of the taxes paid by a very small group, the wealthy, as they are now.  everyone should have the same % of pain at the end of the month.  and don't even bother with the whole dividend thing because we already went there and already explained it to you.


Quote
Ron Gettlefinger once said there is no amount of money that can satisfy their greed.  The problem we face today is runaway greed in the top 1%, not capitalism per se.  They simply want everything.


even if that were true, how is it a problem?

  those same wealthy you mentioned were, and still are, huge philanthropists.   i bet if there were a way to measure it, they and others like them, have done more long term good than any government program.  and!!!  they did it without being forced by the IRS. and!!!! i bet there was far less waste in the instruments that oversaw their foundations and donations!


Quote
And yet the GOP supports the Wall Street Bankers?

the wall street bankers are huge supporters of democrats, not republicans.  i'm not sure why, but i think it is because most of the nutty regulations come from the left, and the WSB are engaging with the dems in massive crony capitolism and both a way to survive, and for some, a form of corruption.

that said:  "wall street banker" has now become another buzz term.  why don't you explain your objection to them?  i'd be interested in it.

Quote
pushed in part by Grover Norquist and Tea Party activists — are destroying the country’s economic foundation.

what right wing tax policies would that be?    
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #165 on: February 12, 2012, 10:01:14 AM »

Quote
Keep explaining how our current system has to be fixed. So more and more people will understand it, and once a critical point reached the renters of kathyp will say:
 - Dear Landlord, the free lunch is finished. From now on we are citizens with equal rights. From now we keep what we make and we pay for what we take.

yes, the system needs to be fixed.  if we are going to be forced to pay taxes, everyone needs to pay.

i believe what you advocate is theft.  i don't suppose it occurs to people that if my renters had managed their lives and money better they could have owned the house?  or if the last people who owned it had done the same they wouldn't have lost the house?  noooo, far better for people to take than to earn.

fortunately, if it comes to it, our sheriffs dept is good at evictions.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 11:40:45 AM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2012, 10:38:44 AM »

>>noooo, far better for people to take that to earn.

>> i think people deserve to keep what they own, no matter how they came to it.

 evil  grin
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T Beek
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« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2012, 11:47:52 AM »

>>noooo, far better for people to take that to earn.

>> i think people deserve to keep what they own, no matter how they came to it.

 evil  grin


Ooohhh ray, you beat me to it man  Smiley.  

What a blatantly hypocritical (obviously misguided  huh) thing for kathyp to say.  In that one sentence she explains a great deal to us all, which is the only reason why I hang around this place.  I've always been deeply interested in what motivates people to form the opinions they embrace and I think we all now have a pretty good grasp on what motivates Ms kathp  grin .

My suggestion for her (as if she'd take any advise from anyone, least of all me  Wink would be to fix her place up a bit so she can attract a 'higher class' of tenant.  

But I suspect she's getting something (financial or perhaps psychological) out of having this particular class of person and her children nearby and under her control, if only  to allow her the 'regular' opportunity to scrutinize and point fingers at someone (s) she believes is causing her problems and is responsible for this Country's problems.  

I've learned a great deal on this thread.

Thanks for the kudos boca, but I have you to thank for "RE" introducing me to Henry George a bit ago.  I've aged some (actually quite a bit) since my first intro back in the 70's to the greatest economist ever to have lived.  My original copy of "Progress and Poverty" came from my Maternal Grandmother and now has lots of little notes written in the margins  cool .

I now KNOW clearly why his theories are ignored by the ruling classes ("no matter how they came to it" according to k  Wink because I've been very fortunate to have lived and seen and experienced some extraordinary things of this world.  Life experience really can change people.

t
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:12:13 PM by T Beek » Logged

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T Beek
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« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2012, 12:08:23 PM »

Seems 'someones' done some 'editing' or should we assume backtracking  Wink.

t
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:00:18 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2012, 01:05:52 PM »

always good to correct our misspellings.   Wink

and you are right.  it has always been my highest goal in life to be a slum lord.  good of you to grasp so quickly what i am all about. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
T Beek
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« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2012, 01:16:31 PM »

Its Good to have goals and there's certainly nothing wrong w/ 'clarifying' an opinion.

t
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« Reply #171 on: February 12, 2012, 08:55:05 PM »

Maybe I'm ignorant but every time I see folks argue over economics, spending, taxes, welfare, ...............  I always feel that they all are missing the real problem and that the real problem sits back and watches people bicker over these democrat vs republican issues and all the others while they drink their 40k glass of wine laughing their butt off.  They know why we are in debt, they know why we work harder today then yesterday even though technology has advanced to the point that the middle class should be bigger than ever and not shrinking daily.  They know as long as people will blame each other for their problems instead of going directly to the main root and destroying it, they can just continue spinning their web of deceit until we are all completely trapped and freedom gives way to complete fascism.
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« Reply #172 on: February 13, 2012, 08:08:47 AM »

Bee-nuts: I sure HOPE you are wrong.

Come on folks! No opinion on this:

Watched "Moyer and company" on PBS last night;

Bill Moyer was interviewing Bruce Bartlett (one of the masterminds of Reganomics); Excerpt from website:
"Bartlett argues that right-wing tax policies — pushed in part by Grover Norquist and Tea Party activists — are destroying the country’s economic foundation. When he called George W. Bush out as “a pretend conservative” in his book Impostor: Why George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy, Bartlett was fired from his position as a senior fellow at a conservative think tank. His new book is The Benefit and the Burden: Tax Reform — Why We Need It and What It Will Take."
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T Beek
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« Reply #173 on: February 13, 2012, 08:50:08 AM »

bee-nuts;  No you are not ignorant, Just the fact that you are asking questions shows us all that, but you should know, and I think you do know  Wink, that the divisions and the confusion are all part of the plan as you indicated.  

I must reference you back to this fact;  "Our biggest error is in mistaking the profits of monopoly for the legitimate earnings of capital."  

Until we 'fix' this most fatal flaw of 'one-sided' economics, which goes against any reason or natural law, we are doomed to what we presently accept as "the way' it has to be.

ray; sorry man, but its Bill Moyer(s) and all five of his programs from this season are available on-line.  You are SO RIGHT though, I can't recommend his interviews enough and have done so previously in these very pages.  As you said, The one w/ Bartlett was very eye opening and s/b mandatory viewing for folks 'really' interested in these issues.  

The one w/ David Stockman (I think it was episode 3) was also truly fascinating and insightful.  IMO, EVERYONE on THIS thread should check them all out.  I've got them all recorded....Surprise!

Unfortunately since its from PBS and Bill Moyers (an alleged communist according to some  rolleyes), there are those among us who will absolutely refuse to view anything from the "public" airwaves, which explains some of the misinformed rhetoric but not all.

t
 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 06:03:32 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #174 on: February 13, 2012, 01:11:11 PM »

Ya, T Beek, your probably right, but It is Bruce Bartlett, an Arch Bishop of Conservatism! (or used to be)
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T Beek
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« Reply #175 on: February 13, 2012, 01:23:32 PM »

Used to be is right, now some might wish he was again perhaps (?).  But much Like Saint Ron (RAY-GUN) he likely couldn't get elected to dog catcher today, the center has been pulled so far right and the divisions are now so deep.

The true powers that be could not be more pleased with us.

t
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« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2012, 02:23:50 AM »

... Why George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy, Bartlett was fired from his position as a senior fellow at a conservative think tank...

I am no fan of Neo-Cons. The only thing I hate about the two Bush presidents is that the Japanese AAA gunners on Iwo Jima did not take better aim when GHW Bush flew over.  Reagan on the other hand was not a Neo-Con.  The Gipper was a true convert.  BTW, I pretty much have the same opinion about John McCain and North Viet Nam's AA troops. 

Sometimes a dead hero renders a greater service to his country than a live politician can.  It is a rather sad reflection on our human failings, but I believe that it is a fact of life. 

But remember, Obama's proposed tax policies won't affect the super rich.  Obama is only proposing to tax the working rich.  The Kennedy fortune or Bloomberg's wealth is safe.  Get out of the 1800s and get into the 21st Century, that tired old Marxist class envy thingy is just that, "Tired Old Class Envy."  BYW, envy is one of the seven deadly sins.  But the Tired Old Class Envy of the past rejects the concept of sin.  How convient.

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boca
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« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2012, 03:20:52 AM »

Intelligent people talk about ideas, average people talk about events, dumb people talk about people.
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T Beek
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« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2012, 05:52:42 AM »

boca, you are the man  cool  (my assumption?) I've got that phrase hanging up in my garage  Smiley

kingbee; as a recent example of how a dead hero can render 'a greater service' one need only look up the name Patrick Tillman.  Too bad for the chickenhawks that the 'truth' came out.

t
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 06:09:56 AM by T Beek » Logged

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T Beek
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« Reply #179 on: February 14, 2012, 06:51:30 AM »

"A little Socialism here, and a little Capitalism there; a concern for the public sector here, and a concession to the profit motive there; a sop to the underprivileged here, and a bow to incentive there--put them all together and what have you got?

Nothing but a big rag-bag, a haphazard pastiche of odds and ends without any bones and without any guts.

Never the less there is a Middle Way.  There is a body of socioeconomic truth which incorporates the best insights of both Capitalism and Socialism.  Yet they are not insights that are artificially woven together to form a deliberate compromise.  Instead they arise naturally, with a kind of inner logic, from the profound ethical distinction which is the system's core.  They arise remorselessly from an understanding of the meaning of the commandment:

THOU SHALL NOT STEAL----R.V. Andelson

(In just one generation we've graduated from 'Greed is good' to "theft is good" today (or is it theft is best?)   Cry )

t
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 06:40:37 AM by T Beek » Logged

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