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Author Topic: Are you better off than you were four years ago?  (Read 3704 times)
luvin honey
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« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2011, 08:06:21 PM »

Yeah, I read about Solyndra. I'm quite aware those kinds of efforts come from tax dollars. But so does unemployment insurance and other social programs. I'd rather it went to employing people doing actual projects than paying people to survive.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2011, 08:09:06 PM »

there are green companies that are doing fine.  they are doing fine because the market feels that the product is good and affordable.  this is how products should come to us.  a company makes something that we want, and that we can afford.  the company does well.  the company fails to make a good product or market it well.  the company fails.
That's a little disingenuous. AFAIK, most of our energy industries are propped up with subsidies. None of it is "affordable" to us. Same with a lot of our food. If you count the cost of constant war in the middle east where we most certainly have an interest in the oil supply, our gas is quite definitely not affordable.
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2011, 08:17:47 PM »

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But so does unemployment insurance and other social programs

you have read the studies that show paying unemployment causes people to remain unemployed for longer periods of time.  why do we pay people not to work?  why do we have welfare programs for anyone except those who are unable to work?  why are you and i paying people to do nothing? 

i am not in favor of subsidies.  i would be quite happy with a flat tax that everyone paid.  the only exception i would make would be for charitable giving because that's where welfare belongs.

if the government were not taking money out of the private sector to give to people in the public sector, and if the government were not interfering with private industry in so many ways, do you think things might be better?  what does the government do so well that makes you want to trust them to "fix" things....and not even with your tax dollars anymore, but with borrowed money?

if the government is fixing things and employing people....again, where does that money come from?  (hint:  see above)

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2011, 08:24:32 PM »

That's my point in stating that I would prefer tax dollars went to employing people in public works projects than in paying them unemployment insurance. Nothing is ideal right now, but that's what I would choose as the lesser of 2 evils.

I'm not sure I trust the gov't to fix things. Too many factions, too many views and always another election cycle around the corner... However, I see roads crumbling around me, I read of unsafe bridges, ancient schools, etc. Even retrofitting public buildings to be more energy efficient and fixing our current infrastructure would create a boatload of jobs.

I'm not an economist. I have no idea the cost of that plan versus the cost of unemployment insurance. Obviously all of this comes from tax dollars, which are awfully hard to come by when people have no income whatsoever. I would absolutely be in favor of a tax structure more like we had in the old days, where the extremely wealthy paid in much more than they do now. It's pure craziness that Warren Buffett pays less in taxes than his employees.

I have no idea what you mean by "the gov't taking money out of the private sector..." Are you referring to taxes? It would be so boring to get into a conversation about the myriad ways we all use tax dollars, even those of us who want no gov't "interference" whatsoever or any sort of regulation...
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The pedigree of honey
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---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2011, 08:38:04 PM »

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However, I see roads crumbling around me, I read of unsafe bridges, ancient schools,

fine, but other than the interstate highway system, this is the job of your state.  why should i pay for the roads in your state?  why should you pay for my schools?

Quote
Obviously all of this comes from tax dollars

it doesn't anymore.  they have gone trillions of dollars beyond that.  it is borrowed or printed.   the dollar is devalued because of the printing of money and we owe so much to other countries that there is not way to pay it all back.  do you ever hear anyone talk about how we'll do that?  no, because no one has any answer to that question.  if you took 100% of the money from all the wealthy, you would not put a dent in the debt.

Quote
It's pure craziness that Warren Buffett pays less in taxes than his employees.


you need better sources of info.  turns out that he was not entirely honest about how this works.  he takes very little salary.  most of his money comes from dividends on investments.  those are taxed at a lower rate because the money used to make the investments is already taxed.  he is worth billions on paper, but he doesn't hold that in taxable income.  as a matter of fact, his secretary may make a higher annual income from salary than he does, so yes, she'd pay more.

Quote
"the gov't taking money out of the private sector..." Are you referring to taxes? It would be so boring to get into a conversation about the myriad ways we all use tax dollars, even those of us who want no gov't "interference" whatsoever or any sort of regulation...

the government has no source of income.  it does not make anything to sell and it does earn anything from labor.  everything the government has, it takes or borrows.  what it takes, it takes from individual and business taxes...the private sector for the most part.  government employees certainly do not pay in taxes what they get in salaries and benefits.  we are paying for that.

i don't know anyone who thinks there should be no regulations.  however, there should be fewer.  especially those regulations that slow business and those that are designed to manipulate behavior.  the government should not be deciding which business live or die. they are doing that now.  the government should not be creating legislation or taxes that are designed to cause me to behave in one way or another.  my personal behavior  is none of the governments business. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2011, 10:17:03 PM »

Is Exxon really subsidized? Let's look at their perspective,which is never reported on the major networks that support the liberal leanings:
http://www.exxonmobilperspectives.com/2011/05/02/exxonmobil-u-s-taxes-and-u-s-earnings/

It always bothers me that they report the "record" earnings without reporting on the investment dollars required to make these earnings.As a return on investment for the high risk they take,it may not be that great.
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kathyp
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2011, 10:24:35 PM »

yup.  their profit margin is much lower than, say, Microsoft.  yet you never hear the fair share folks demand that microsoft, apple, etc. pay more.

Microsofts profit margin is almost 34%.  we all use their products.  are they ripping us off, or making a fair profit for the product?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2011, 11:17:08 PM »

pop

aw heck...couldnt find it lol
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Poppi
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« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2011, 08:38:41 AM »

kathyp, I like the way you think!  It is obvious you have done your homework...  you go girl!!!!   You make your argument very well. Smiley

John
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kathyp
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2011, 09:40:12 AM »

thanks john, but rather than sell my soul for the sake of a waltz, google and i have done the borg thing.  we are one  evil 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2011, 10:27:44 AM »

yup.  their profit margin is much lower than, say, Microsoft.  yet you never hear the fair share folks demand that microsoft, apple, etc. pay more.

Microsofts profit margin is almost 34%.  we all use their products.  are they ripping us off, or making a fair profit for the product?
Yeah you do. Microsoft is still involved in antitrust charges.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2011, 11:37:19 AM »

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Yeah you do. Microsoft is still involved in antitrust charges.

sure, but no one is marching on Bill Gates demanding that he lower the cost of his product because he's making obscene profits.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2011, 01:10:31 PM »

And I don't see people protesting Exxon either. We "need" both their products, we pay the set price, and we complain about it.

I merely mentioned I would rather see any bailout going towards real-life projects instead of unemployment. Kathy commented that green is not affordable. I commented that neither is oil, corn, soy, etc. etc. when you consider the subsidies, cost of future clean-up of the environment, etc.
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The pedigree of honey
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---Emily Dickinson
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« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2011, 01:27:27 PM »

I guess i'm in the minority... so to answer the question, i'm actually better off now than I was 4 years ago.

...DOUG
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BlevinsBees
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« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2011, 01:42:49 PM »

You really think Romney or Cain is the answer?

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/what-has-obama-done-since-january-20-2009.html
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« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2011, 01:51:38 PM »

environmental clean up?  Yeah your right we will probably be paying to clean up China's mess while we regulate everyone here out of business.  If you really want to create jobs take away Obama care cause let's just be honest on the subject does it really make any sense that your employer is taking care of your health insurance.  Deregulate and remove obstacles for individuals to make a job for themselves.  Open up drilling for oil and mountain top removal for coal to drop energy prices across the board.  Allow companies that have made profits over seas to bring those here without being taxed again.  Cut out federal mandates to the states.  Get these things done with massive federal budget spending cuts and you will see extraordinary things coming from the private sector for a change.  
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luvin honey
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« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2011, 02:37:12 PM »

Hankdog--You don't think deregulation of the financial industry led to most of our financial mess right now? Yet you'd like to see everything else deregulated?

As for health insurance, I don't have the answers. But if employers didn't offer health insurance as a benefit (and they're not required to, it's part of the free market), how many people would have it at all? How many could afford it? I certainly couldn't afford the plan I have through my employer right now. And many people I work with would be in serious trouble because they couldn't have qualified at all (preexisting conditions) for healthcare on their own without getting in on a large group plan.

Not even going to touch the toxic mess we would be living in if drilling, coal and all the rest were completely deregulated.

I want regulations, but regulations that make sense and are livable. I grow veggies for part of my living and I clearly see how nonsensical, harsh regulation could put people out of business. So, as a consumer of food, I want some regulation. As a grower of food, I want it to make sense and be "doable."

As for China, they're developing. We did some truly awful things socially and environmentally while we were a developing nation also. Not saying it's okay for either nation, but it's kind of historical fact. They will probably develop to the point where they clean up their own act.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
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Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
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« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2011, 03:07:35 PM »

 applause applause applause
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« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2011, 03:21:20 PM »

The answer to this mess cannot be found running for office this time... at least not that I can see...  Romney is a progressive...  as is McCain...  we need more than a President to fix this mess.  We need a new Congress.  I'm not talking Republican or Democrat or Libertarian...  we need fiscal responsibility, accountability, and people that honor our Constitution...  I don't see it on a broad enough scale to make a difference no matter who gets elected this time.  If the House and Senate cannot do anything more than slap each other around and point accusatory fingers at everything but the real problems then how can we expect them to resolve the issues driving the USA into bankruptcy and socialism.  Obama, Reed, Pelosi, Dodd, Frank and the many liberals and progressives have been working to make us dependent on the Fed for years.  The make up their own rules as they go...  Teddy Roosevelt, if not the first, one of the first Progressives to start us down this path we are on...  I don't think most people see the dangerous people that are controlling the strings of the puppets that have been elected to office.  Such as George Soros...  he would love nothing more than see this country collapse.

Tell me, anyone...  what do you know about our idiot president...  if he went to Columbia, why does no one remember him?  Where are his transcripts?  Where are his girl friends from high school, college... etc...   What does anyone know about where he really came from...  he just showed up as a senator from Illinois a very few years before becoming President.  Just where the heck did he come from...  really???   Why are all his "records" sealed....   I think because there are none...  think about it!
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hankdog1
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« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2011, 09:04:52 PM »

Hankdog--You don't think deregulation of the financial industry led to most of our financial mess right now? Yet you'd like to see everything else deregulated?

As for health insurance, I don't have the answers. But if employers didn't offer health insurance as a benefit (and they're not required to, it's part of the free market), how many people would have it at all? How many could afford it? I certainly couldn't afford the plan I have through my employer right now. And many people I work with would be in serious trouble because they couldn't have qualified at all (preexisting conditions) for healthcare on their own without getting in on a large group plan.

Not even going to touch the toxic mess we would be living in if drilling, coal and all the rest were completely deregulated.

I want regulations, but regulations that make sense and are livable. I grow veggies for part of my living and I clearly see how nonsensical, harsh regulation could put people out of business. So, as a consumer of food, I want some regulation. As a grower of food, I want it to make sense and be "doable."

As for China, they're developing. We did some truly awful things socially and environmentally while we were a developing nation also. Not saying it's okay for either nation, but it's kind of historical fact. They will probably develop to the point where they clean up their own act.

Nope I don't think deregulation led to this mess.  What led to this mess is the federal government making legislation so the banks had to take such risk to compete with one another. 

As for healthcare we see with areas with lazer eye surgery that competition works.  Competition is almost non existant because who cares what it cost my insurance will pay for it or who cares how much it costs medicaid is paying.  Heck last time I worked for anyone but myself it was more for me to buy insurance through the employer then to buy my own.  Not to mention the insurance I paid for out of my own pocket paid more and had a 200 instead of a 3000 dollar deductible. 

As for coal, oil, and other energy extraction.  What your not seeing here is you don't live in an area that your entire economy is based on enery production.  Here natural gas and coal are king.  There are so many regulations on the extractions of these that you and everyone else bares the brunt of the cost.  We have clean coal burning power plants and yet more can't be built due to the EPA.  New coal permits can't go through because of the EPA. 

In the end it's about do I want to eat or give up the luxuries I have became accustomed to? 

BTW the EPA's stance on mountian top removal for getting at coal has halted economic progress in counties where the practice provides usable land for development once finished.  This is exactly the reason I don't want some congress man or woman telling me what my part of the country needs to do.
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