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Poll
Question: How do you feed during winter months?
Pail feeder - 2 (10.5%)
Top hive feeder - 4 (21.1%)
Entrance feeder - 0 (0%)
Frame feeder - 2 (10.5%)
Dry sugar - 11 (57.9%)
Total Voters: 19


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Author Topic: Winter feeding without honey stores  (Read 3238 times)
Shanevrr
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« on: October 16, 2011, 08:09:42 PM »

Im curious what beeks use for feeding that works in your climate.  And maybe your thoughts on why you do it that way vs. another.  Please dont reply if you use honey left in your supers.
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2011, 08:23:54 PM »

We use open feeding and top feeders in September/October and top off with dry sugar in late November.  We don't open the hives during the winter months.
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T Beek
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 06:03:02 AM »

Me too.  I open feed syrup until day time temps stay below 55.  Then I may feed some more 'inside' until nights stay below freezing.  Then, upon winter wrap up (usually before Thanksgiving) I'll fill top ventilation/feed super with DRY sugar and hope for the best.  On a warm 32 F or above sunny day in mid or late December I might check (and fill) stores if needed.

(on those colonies with ample honey I still fill a top box w/ sugar 'just in case')

thomas
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Finski
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 06:51:57 AM »

.
I feed at the beginning of September 20 kg sugar per hive as 2:1.

Open feeding is absolutely out of question and same with dry sugar. Dry sugar is not bees' food. They need water to use it.

That food lasts 9 months. After cleansing flight I even stores between hives untill in May nature gives nectar.  the honey store in hives is about 5 kg in brood frames.

Emergency feeding after Marsh if needed and mostly I take capped frames from other hives.

If the hive has brooding in December, nothing will save it.

One box beeding happens in 3 days and two box hive in one week. Capping takes a couple weeks more.
Too long feeding starts brooding.

.2 frames of pollen included to each hive.

i wonder what is so difficult in feeding sugar to bees.
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T Beek
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 07:11:07 AM »

Different strokes for different folks Finsk (as old as you are you must have heard that one, heh?).  
We don't all live in Finland where bees and beekeepers have it sooooo hard.

That said, ALL Beekeeping is Local don't you think?  Kinda like politics Wink  

IMO; The teaching method of attacking or ridiculing those w/ differing opinions or viewpoints, besides just being rude, gives your own position little credibility or authority.  That's too bad for someone with so much to offer Cry.

All my bees get some dry sugar for winter, some take it, some don't.  All dependant on the individual colony.

thomas
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 08:16:39 AM »

If I had not of placed some dry sugar on the tops of a couple of my hives, they would have starved last January. No, it probably isnt the best means of feeding bees, but they are still alive today because I did it. I think dry sugar beats a snowball-plus you dont run the risk of a temperature change and syrup being forced out on top of your cluster.
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D Semple
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2011, 09:09:16 AM »


One box beeding happens in 3 days and two box hive in one week. Capping takes a couple weeks more.
Too long feeding starts brooding.


Fin, you lost me here, could you explain further.

Thanks,

Don
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2011, 10:01:11 AM »

I don't use much dry sugar.... maybe 1 to 2 pounds.  This is nothing compared to the stores in the frames so it isn't intended to play a real role in overall winter energy consumption.  It is about availability during cold snaps.  In my long hives the brood nest doesn't move in winter.  So the bees have to move stores to refill their cluster storage.  If they run out of cluster storage and a cold snap keeps them from moving stores, they could starve, even with plenty of food in the honey section.  The dry sugar is just above the brood nest which is the warming part of the hive.  It is always available as emergency food.  We don't have long periods of extremely cold weather.  Dry sugar just gets them through a week of unusual weather.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2011, 10:58:51 AM »

Frameshift, I thought your long hives only have a bee space between your frames and the top cover?  I know 1 to 2 pounds of sugar doesn’t require a large volume, but do you add a shim under your cover or just fill the bee space with sugar?
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Finski
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 11:07:29 AM »

If I had not of placed some dry sugar on the tops of a couple of my hives, they would have starved last January.


after couple of winter months bees are staeving.

You must do something to deminish the consumption. Look, my hives manage with syrup from September to May.  Your winter rest starts xx months and food is finish  in Janury . Do something!

- Get beestock which stop brooding in time
- restrict the wintering space
- protect from wind
- use insulation if frost is bad like -20C
- close mesh floor in winter
- feed the hive full, so they cap the full
- try to rear wintering colony that it fills the whole box.
TREAT VARROA IN TIME!


DON'T TRUST GOOD LUCK. Prepare hives for worst situations. It is late if the worst has happened.
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Finski
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 11:11:07 AM »

Different strokes for different folks Finsk (as old as you are you must have heard that one, heh?).  
We don't all live in Finland where bees and beekeepers have it sooooo hard.


we don't have here 40% winter losses. But if you want to be best in that  figure, go for it .
I have not odd wintering problems. Have you?
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BlueBee
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 11:19:10 AM »

You must do something to deminish the consumption. Look, my hives manage with syrup from September to May.  Your winter rest starts xx months and food is finish  in Janury . Do something!

- Get beestock which stop brooding in time
- restrict the wintering space
- protect from wind
- use insulation if frost is bad like -20C
- close mesh floor in winter
- feed the hive full, so they cap the full
- try to rear wintering colony that it fills the whole box.
TREAT VARROA IN TIME!


DON'T TRUST GOOD LUCK. Prepare hives for worst situations. It is late if the worst has happened.
applause applause applause
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 01:33:27 PM »

Frameshift, I thought your long hives only have a bee space between your frames and the top cover?  I know 1 to 2 pounds of sugar doesn’t require a large volume, but do you add a shim under your cover or just fill the bee space with sugar?

No shim.  Just put newpaper on top of the frames and sprinkle on the sugar with a squirt or two of water to moisten it and make it clump.  So I am just filling up the beespace.
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 03:07:09 PM »

:

No shim.  Just put newpaper on top of the frames and sprinkle on the sugar with a squirt or two of water to moisten it and make it clump.  So I am just filling up the beespace.

-  a place which has no real winter
- then open feeding
- and then this bee news reading
- don't take honey from hives to sell

 huh
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 03:58:12 PM »


-  a place which has no real winter
The OP lives only 100 miles north of me.  If it works for me, it will work for him.
Quote
- then open feeding
I'm liking this more and more.  I don't use lots of jars.  I just have one big tub of sugar syrup with small pieces of wood floating in it so the bees have a place to land safely.  I place the tub 100 yards from the hives.  This is far enough to trigger the waggle dance instead of the round dance.  This keeps the bees away from the hives and does not start robbing.  I would NEVER open feed close to the hives.  This method does not work when the temperature is lower than 50 degrees at night because the bees start to drown.

Open feeding takes less equipment than other methods. It takes less work on the part of the beekeeper than other methods.  It distributes the sugar according to the size of the hive's foraging strength and at a rate which can be processed by the storage bees.  It simulates a flow which is good in the spring.  Maybe not so good in a dearth.

Quote
- and then this bee news reading
use comic books it you prefer.   grin

Quote
- don't take honey from hives to sell
We have a business leasing beehives.  The honey belongs to our customers.  We use honey from our own beeyards, but we don't sell it.  That's because we have no state approved kitchen to process the honey.  Since we have cats in the house, we could never get approval.   We could build a separate honey house for processing but it's not worth it.  That's not the business we are interested in.
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Finski
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2011, 05:02:38 PM »

Open feeding takes less equipment than other methods. It takes less work on the part of the beekeeper than other methods.  It distributes the sugar according to the size of the hive's foraging strength and at a rate which can be processed by the storage bees.  It simulates a flow which is good in the spring.  Maybe not so good in a dearth.
 


oh boy what a nonsense. Every sentence is nonsense. 

hives foraging strengt?. Hive must be feeded that combs are full that bees cap the food. The number of wintering space is determined how much the hive had brood before stopping brooding.

Where you need flow simulation?
 I feed 10 frame hive full in 2 days without philosophy.  I fill the feeding box 2 times.

Open feeding means that bees flye like mad here and there. For what?

.that is toykeeping.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 07:10:29 PM »

Open feeding means that bees flye like mad here and there. For what?

For the reasons I stated.  Each sentence is true.  Less equipment.  Less work.  Distributes feed with more going to bigger hives.  Simulates flow (whether you think that is necessary or not).  But the main reason is that open feeding at a distance from the hives does not set off robbing.  In-hive feeding often does. 
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Shanevrr
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2011, 11:55:27 PM »

Open feeding can also spread disease, and provoke fighting
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« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2011, 02:26:10 AM »

Open feeding means that bees flye like mad here and there. For what?

For the reasons I stated.  Each sentence is true.  Less equipment.  Less work.  Distributes feed with more going to bigger hives.  Simulates flow (whether you think that is necessary or not).  But the main reason is that open feeding at a distance from the hives does not set off robbing.  In-hive feeding often does.  


hah hah. Then you spend  hundreds of hours chatting here. What means "less work".

If you really run something business you cannot have time to spend here. Life is not so easy in business.

With upper feeder, if you take all honey off, in our size hives the feeding takes 2 days to execute. If you use 16 litre feeder, you fill it once. Less work?

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Finski
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2011, 02:36:08 AM »

Open feeding can also spread disease, and provoke fighting

so they do after my 48 years experiment. Then they tend to destroy small spare queen nucs.
Even they go to the neighbour bee yards half mile away. There is cloud of bees on the door of extracting room. - sorry you do not extract. You just feed...

After all, I know something about beekeeping. Dont try to write what ever comes into mind.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2011, 02:47:48 AM »

Different strokes for different folks Finsk (as old as you are you must have heard that one, heh?).  
We don't all live in Finland where bees and beekeepers have it sooooo hard.

That said, ALL Beekeeping is Local don't you think?  Kinda like politics Wink  

IMO; The teaching method of attacking or ridiculing those w/ differing opinions or viewpoints, besides just being rude, gives your own position little credibility or authority.  That's too bad for someone with so much to offer Cry.

All my bees get some dry sugar for winter, some take it, some don't.  All dependant on the individual colony.

thomas
well said THOMAS-- Smiley RDY-B
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T Beek
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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2011, 05:28:46 AM »

Its taken awhile, but I've learned there are some around here who like to give advise/opinion (shove it down your throat really) and yet refuse to accept any other advise or opinion, seemingly relishing any oportunity to ridicule others.  Some don't even offer advise but instead just belittle.  

Some 'experts' think beekeeping is all about their bees making lots of honey for the beek to sell, taking nearly all their stored honey before winter (?) and then feeding syrup for 9 or 10 months.  IMO that's bee imprisonment NOT beekeeping.  But hey, that's just me.

Must be really hard on those folks (and bees) living nearby grin.

(beware the know-it-alls grin) They've led us down these trails before.

thomas
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2011, 08:46:45 AM »

Open feeding can also spread disease, and provoke fighting

I'm not sure why you think open feeding spreads disease.  You know, bees are drifting from hive to hive all the time.  Bees are exposed to disease agents all the time.  The thing that determines whether the hive gets sick is not exposure.  It's the state of health of the hive to start with.  If hives get too small, they get sick.  If hives get too wet, they get sick.  Healthy hives have no problem with open feeding.  A nice field of flowers is a form of open feeding.   grin

You are right that open feeding close to the hives will provoke robbing and fighting.  That's why I feed 100 yards from the hives.  When there is some flow going on, it may be safe to feed in-hive.  During a dearth, even top feeding of the strong hives can start robbing in all the hives.  That's my experience.
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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2011, 09:01:46 AM »

.
It must be very difficult  to nurse bees in ordinary way. I need too some hokkus pokkus skills.
Top feeders are very common style. I think that 100% of our beekeepers use syrup and top feeders in Autumn. Of course there are fighting on entrances. That means nothing.
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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2011, 01:22:34 PM »

Open feeding can also spread disease, and provoke fighting

I'm not sure why you think open feeding spreads disease.  You know, bees are drifting from hive to hive all the time.  Bees are exposed to disease agents all the time.  The thing that determines whether the hive gets sick is not exposure.  It's the state of health of the hive to start with.  If hives get too small, they get sick.  If hives get too wet, they get sick.  Healthy hives have no problem with open feeding.  A nice field of flowers is a form of open feeding.   grin

You are right that open feeding close to the hives will provoke robbing and fighting.  That's why I feed 100 yards from the hives.  When there is some flow going on, it may be safe to feed in-hive.  During a dearth, even top feeding of the strong hives can start robbing in all the hives.  That's my experience.
a good example of how they can spread diese would be open feeding of wet suppers after extraction-
and its the healthy hives(big hogs) that get the most exposure --RDY-B
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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2011, 01:54:04 PM »

.
I would say that during my beekeeping I have tried all feeding methods what in this forum have been mentioned. It need not much idea to put out something to eate.

My opinion is that,  all trials to make bees flye out, carry water in, fly for vain searching nothing, hives figting against each othe and what childish operations, they just stress bees.

Bees fight even on waterpools.

This summer I was in a farmer's home yard. Some bees came to sniff my car. I asked that I could bring a lure box in the yard to see what is there. It was a small village which did not have bee hives.

Next morning there were two kind of bees, Carniolans and Italians and they try to fight with each other. About 20 bees and fighting. It told that there at least 2 wild colonies in the village.


Once I feeded irradiated pollen in home yard. I had 20 hives in the yard. Bees started to gather pollen but in the afternoon one hive was congured the pollen place and the flow of pollen bees went only into one hive.

What ever you feed outside, there are handfull of dead bees on site.



 
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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2011, 01:56:43 PM »

a good example of how they can spread diese would be open feeding of wet suppers after extraction-
and its the healthy hives(big hogs) that get the most exposure --RDY-B

The only disease concern I would have with open feeding wet supers would be if one of my hives had American Foul Brood.  I have never had a case of AFB.  I am aware of one bee yard in our county that had it last year.   We never bring used wooden ware, used tools, etc into our beeyards from an outside source.  And we never bring honey that we did not produce ourselves into our beeyards.  

Are you saying that you always return wet extracted frames to the same hive that produced the honey to start with?  If not, you are still mixing the honey between hives and that would have the same effect as open feeding.   Do you move frames of bees or honey between hives in your yard.  If so, you are exposing your bees to the same risk as open feeding.  

Actually, I don't extract frames.  We do cut comb or crushed comb.  But if I did have an extracted frame I would not open feed it because the bees rob and damage the comb.  I would just put the frame into a hive and let them clean it.
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« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2011, 02:47:39 PM »

  I understand what you are saying --but you are missing the problem of it--
I am not worried about my suppers --I am worried about the suppers the guy down
 the road is setting out---RDY-B
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« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2011, 03:44:57 PM »

.
Difficult to understand what Frameshift means with his discussions.
He only means his own hives, like if he need not insulation, neither Alaska needs.
If Frame has not AFB, others need not either worry about disease..

frame's habit to nurse bees is quite hype, and he insists all the time something but what.
Odd guy, totally.  waste of time to debate with that guy.

I do not like hype. Enough to do with those ordinary bees.

.....burn those long hives.....fire to balls. Höh!



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« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2011, 04:33:58 PM »

 I understand what you are saying --but you are missing the problem of it--
I am not worried about my suppers --I am worried about the suppers the guy down
 the road is setting out---RDY-B

Well, now I see  what you mean.  But you can't control what the guy down the road is doing.    Are you saying that open feeding should be illegal?  

 Rather than worrying about open feeding, I would just encourage people to avoid feeding honey of unknown origin or bringing used equipment from unknown sources into the beeyard.  And educate your neighbors as to the symptoms of an AFB infection.  

Bees drift from hive to hive.  Robber bees from your neighbors hives may visit your hives or vice versa.  I don't see open feeding as being worse than that.  If we had an epidemic of AFB, I might change my mind.  I live in a remote area and there are no beeyards within two miles.  Maybe that's why I have not been so concerned.  

If I set out open feed at 100 yds, almost all the bees on the feed are coming from my hives.  I can watch the beeline going back and forth.  grin  There are yellow jackets on the open feed, but there are yellow jackets trying to get into my hives too.  



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« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2011, 04:48:44 PM »

Ok, we can tell that it's getting cold and dark in Finland.  The bees have gone to sleep for the winter.  All the honey has been extracted.  Very depressing.  What to do, what to do? grin
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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2011, 04:57:26 PM »

  lots going on for sure-the point is that open feeding is just that open-
 open to whatever synarioe you can come up with--around here there is no limiting to just my bees
if you have been keeping bees long enough then you have contributed to the local population
through swarming-those bees are part of the mix-more controlled method would be my first choice this time of year
 if you have ever witnessed  a SERIOUS ROBING EVENT that goes out of control-open feeding would not be your first choice ether
RDY-B
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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2011, 04:59:06 PM »

Ok, we can tell that it's getting cold and dark in Finland.  The bees have gone to sleep for the winter.  All the honey has been extracted.  Very depressing.  What to do, what to do? grin
  they do VODKA  cheesy RDY-B
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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2011, 05:33:36 PM »

Ok, we can tell that it's getting cold and dark in Finland.  The bees have gone to sleep for the winter.  All the honey has been extracted.  Very depressing.  What to do, what to do? grin

you know, we have some TV here and 35 channels. And beautyful gir...sceneries
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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2011, 05:46:25 PM »

I’m thinking of making me a long hive or two on these cold dark winter days grin
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2011, 06:41:06 PM »

if you have ever witnessed  a SERIOUS ROBING EVENT that goes out of control-open feeding would not be your first choice ether
RDY-B
I've had a few robbing events that started to get out of control and I had to shut down all the hives for two days.  Not pretty.  But that's why I like open feeding at 100 yds.  No robbing.  The robbing events I had were caused by top feeding. 

The scent of sugar in the beeyard causes robbing in all the hives, not just the ones being fed.  But if the sugar is at a distance, the bees don't bother the other hives in the beeyard.  The reason I go to 100 yds. is that the waggle dance starts at 75 yds and I suspect that gives the bees a more solid incentive to go to the source rather than just cruise around the bee yard looking for the same scent.  I also add apple cider vinegar to the open feed to clearly mark the source.  Don't know if that actually helps.

Ok, if you are having robbing set off by open feeding, clearly you should not open feed.  I just haven't seen that.  How far out were you feeding when you had the robbing problem?
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2011, 06:50:40 PM »

you know, we have some TV here and 35 channels. And beautyful gir...sceneries
Didn't you tell me all the girls have tatoos?  Is that the scenery you are talking about?

Yes, I have known some very lovely Finnish women.  They seem to be very confident and independent.  I bet they make great beekeepers!  grin
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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2011, 10:28:38 PM »

What I meant was open feeding can invite other bees from other yards, and cross contaminate.  You may know yourself your protected but some are not and we dont want to teach new beeks its common practice when there are variables.  To me its the lazy way to feed your bees.  Based on material ive read and common sense, I dont agree with it nor will I do it.

And you dont want fighting as it teaches them bad manners lol
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Shane C.
Finski
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« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2011, 01:34:39 AM »

The scent of sugar in the beeyard causes robbing in all the hives, not just the ones being fed. 

and 99,9% of beekeepers are wrong!.

Frameshift, you delivery mere stuff, which name I cannot write here.

Never mind. Every beekeeper has feeded sugar to their bees and they know how it  goes.

I think that Frame is spamming all the time. No one can bee so extraordinary. Stupid figure skating.
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T Beek
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« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2011, 06:27:02 AM »

99.9% of beekeepers are wrong??  Only Finski knows how to keep bees huh.  Heck, Finski Knows everything.  Pass it around people, nobody has to think anymore, just ask the fin grin.

It must be tiring being right all the time Finski.  However, even after 48 years keeping bees you know very little about teaching people (beekeeping or anything else).  Its a shame that you had to hi-jack this (yet another) thread just to spout your poisonous rant instead of providing reasonable answers to inquiring beeks.  I honestly don't know why the mods let you get away w/ it 'all the time'  you're not that helpful.

I'm not sure I can believe or adhere to anything you type to be honest, just can't get past the overwhelming arrogance.

Not all 'experts' make good teachers.  Beware the (self-proclaimed) experts.  Most don't know the half of it Wink

thomas  
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 06:40:02 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2011, 08:33:04 AM »

Never mind. Every beekeeper has feeded sugar to their bees and they know how it  goes.
Finski, I can only tell you what I have experienced.  I've been open feeding (at 100 yds) my bees periodically since late September with no robbing.  As the nighttime temperatures got too low for open feeding, I switched to top feeding the stronger hives.  After two days of top feeding, I had robbing on all hives.  If you have some other explanation, I'd like hear it.  All I can do is tell you what happened. Sad

I have no trouble with top feeding in the spring when there is a stronger flow on.  Right now we have only a weak flow. Maybe that makes a difference.  Or maybe the bees are more aggressive about robbing as they sense winter approaching. 
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Finski
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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2011, 08:53:32 AM »

.
I finally say WOW!

I carry 1000 litre syrup to the distance of 100 yards and open the hive gates GO!

The most stupid I ever read. For what?

My neighbour has 20 hives at the distance of  800 yards. He surely like to share my 1000 litre syrup.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 09:08:08 AM by Finski » Logged

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