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Author Topic: Happy with extractor!  (Read 1411 times)
Acebird
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« on: October 11, 2011, 04:16:05 PM »

It has been a while since I posted on this site but some people were interested in my extractor that I built last year.
Here is a youtube link and from there you should be able to view the other vids.  Just view them in order.
First extraction four frames 002


I am very happy with the results.  Only have to spin them about 2 minutes for four frames.  Takes almost as much time to load and unload.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 12:23:07 AM »

  Holly cow ace full production -I expected nothing less-- cool  RDY-B
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Hemlock
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 07:36:56 AM »

Nice but it makes me nervous looking at your bare hands next to all that spinning equipment.  Hope you put a full cover on that thing.
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Acebird
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2011, 08:20:38 AM »

Do you think I can't devise a way to not hold the x brace in with my hands?  By next extraction it will be hands free.  I will also replace the plastic bag over the motor with a spinner disc although next to nothing got on the motor as I expected, just a couple of drips when you load the uncapped frames.

Because the new frames had top bars that were dimensionally different than my old frames you can see I struggled a bit to get the metal clips on.  That has already been taken care of.  The x brace bearing support will be fixed in place so the center tube doesn't flop over when loading the first frame.  I will also opened up a segment for loading and unloading.  Frames will just drop in for loading.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 01:32:06 PM »

 may be a magnet in side the botom of the tub to collect all the metal shavings and shuch
 from the internal power suply-- cheesy--
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Acebird
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 08:20:12 AM »

I'm a little confused here rdy-b,  There is no power supply.  It is a 110V AC torque motor.  And I don't know how a power supply would give off metal shavings in the first place.
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JP
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 09:27:17 AM »

Way to get er done. Looks like it gives you quite the work out too!  Wink


...JP
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Acebird
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 11:06:52 AM »

what do you mean?
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Jim 134
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 04:56:41 PM »

Way to get er done. Looks like it gives you quite the work out too!  Wink


...JP



This what looks like to me Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On Just my $0.02

http://youtu.be/8yRdDnrB5kM



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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JP
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 09:53:39 PM »

what do you mean?

Was just a little joke, kinda like calling Harleys paint shaker smooth. Hey, if it gets the job done...


...JP
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"Good friends are as sweet as honey" Winne the Pooh

My pictures can be viewed at http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus
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rdy-b
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 10:53:01 PM »

I'm a little confused here rdy-b,  There is no power supply.  It is a 110V AC torque motor.  And I don't know how a power supply would give off metal shavings in the first place.
yea yea thats what i meant the motor--just off the cuff-  cheesy  say if you use turn buckels and light chain you can operate hands free-thats what the dadant twenty framers use check it out-might like it--say in one of the vids after the first one --i noticed you had a bandaid on your finger--did you receive a injury while operating the unit-i know its just a proto type --cant wait to see the new improved version-- cheesy  RDY-B
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BlueBee
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 03:29:20 AM »

AceBird, glad to see a ceiling fan put to good use!

You mentioning making some future revisions to the extractor, so let me ask you this:  Would there be a way to vibrate or shake honey from your frames as an alternative to using centrifugal force?
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Acebird
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 09:12:31 AM »

I am answering the same questions and concerns in two forums so in order to save typing here is a related post:
“Next time I extract I will show you a video of it hands off. It won't go anywhere, I promise. The oscillations you see are no different than what you would see if you could lift the cover off your cloths washer during the spin cycle. If you put a dab of chewing gum on a spinning top (essentially making it out of balance) if will make the same oscillations. There are two ways to handle a spinning mass that is unbalanced. You can either fight it and force it to revolve around a point that it doesn't want to or let it do its thing. One results in tremendous resistive forces and one results in zero resistive force.

LOL, I will tell you what happen with my finger and you can believe it or not. The day before we extracted we processed tomatoes. My wife dries the skins in the oven to be ground up for adding flavor to foods or making paste. I was trying to wipe the dried skins off the cookie sheet and slit my finger like it was cut with a razor. So I can tell you first hand (no pun intended) dried tomatoes skins are razor sharp.

You are welcomed to come use or see my extractor first hand if nothing more than to satisfy your curiosity. I should mention that it will not fit deep sized frames.”
Although you don’t see it in the video there were runs made hands free and the barrel didn’t go anywhere; no need for chains and such.  For test runs I wanted the worst case scenario so I intentionally picked out frames that were not equal.  Within thirty seconds to a minute the frames become more equal in weight and the shaking subsides.  My only concern was popping the x-brace out not that the barrel would tip over or move around.  That is why my hand is there.
Bluebee,
Vibration might increase the speed of the drip method but it would never outperform the centrifugal force method.

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BlueBee
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 02:09:32 PM »

AceBird, I was asking about alternatives to centrifugal force because we know you have a tendency to come up with some creative ideas.  So have you concluded that the 100+ year old method of centrifugal extraction is as good as it can get?

Looks like your extractor holds 4 frames as a time and it takes some time to load and unload the thing.  If you could devise some sort of vibrator/shaker maybe you could just set a whole box of frames on the vibrator, dial in some resonance frequency and have a more parallel process?
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Acebird
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 04:38:36 PM »

Well you would want the box upside down because of the 13 deg angle of the comb but anyhow...

If the bee industry was looking for considerable improvement in processing time (that doesn't seem to be the case) I think a crush and strain method would be the answer.  No one on the other forum thought drastic changes are needed.

This is an overview of how to go about it:
1 Crush and strain would require the availability of manmade comb from bee’s wax.  I think that is doable by some form of extrusion process.

2 Frames would have to be different to accept the man made comb.  I think something along the lines of a folding frame similar to what people who do cut outs use.  That would make it quick and easy to insert this man made comb into the frames.

3 The beekeeper would not get involved with extracting honey.  He would simply strip his frames into barrels and send it off to a plant that would filter the wax and honey.  The wax goes to making comb while the honey goes to the customer.  So essentially there would be no extraction machines, as we know them.  All the processing would be untouched by human hands.  The wax could be tested and the honey tested for acceptable limits.

So is the method of centrifugal extraction as good as it gets?  Doubtful.

Is the extractor, as we know it as good as it gets?  Probably.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 05:33:00 PM »

AceBird, I think you have pointed out before that innovations usually don’t come from within a mature industry and established ideas.  Many people in the bee business are probably content with the high rates of failures and time consuming processes.  Nothing like repeat customers every year.

You are handy with the welder, but not all hobbyists want to build a centrifugal extractor themselves.  So the only options many hobbyists seem to have is crush and strain or spending $500 to $1000 on a centrifugal extractor.  But how wise is it to buy an expensive extractor when keeping bees in the first place is a high failure rate endeavor?  Hence my desire for other ideas.  

I have to admit, I like your man made comb maker idea.  It would really be great if you could make such comb at home with a machine to avoid the shipping costs of fragility of shipping fully drawn comb.
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Jim 134
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 05:57:17 PM »

AceBird, I was asking about alternatives to centrifugal force because we know you have a tendency to come up with some creative ideas.  So have you concluded that the 100+ year old method of centrifugal extraction is as good as it can get?


 You can use a parallel-radial extractor  Just my $0.02


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/
Acebird
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 07:38:24 PM »

I have to admit, I like your man made comb maker idea.  It would really be great if you could make such comb at home with a machine to avoid the shipping costs of fragility of shipping fully drawn comb.

For the small time beekeeper there is a possibility of pouring wax into a silicone mold to make the comb but it would have to be tried.  The issue would be removing the mold without destroying the comb.  It might be more successful by trying to mold a half deep comb and letting the bees draw it out the rest of the way.

The stainless parts could be designed to not have any pieces welded.  That would be a better way to go if someone was going to produce a kit for hobbyist to make their own extractor.  I would have to design the part and have a sheet metal punch house quote the piece parts but I don't know if there is enough interest.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 11:24:16 AM »

AceBird, I was meaning to ask you if you tried a heat gun for uncapping your frames for this extraction?
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Acebird
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2011, 07:05:23 PM »

I was going to but the wife wanted no part of heat near the honey.  From other discussions on the other forum if the wax is in contact with the honey it takes considerable more heat to open up the cell.  That makes a lot of sense.  If the cappings are not in contact with the honey it melts and opens instantly.  For the small amount that I have to do it didn't make sense to mess with the heat gun and upset the wife.
But I do have another idea.  My frames were very think on one side and shallow on the other.  The think frames were easy to uncap with a cold knife.  For the thin side of the frames I used an ordinary fork to scratch the cappings with some success.  I don't see why a spinning wire brush would not do a good job for both conditions of the frames.  Think of a miniature street sweeper or what construction crews use to sweep road surfaces.  They make a piercing roller for plastic comb.  If it were motorized that might work.  I am thinking between uses you might want to set it on something warm to drain the residual wax and honey off the piercer wheel.
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