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Author Topic: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.  (Read 8459 times)
derekm
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« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2011, 09:31:54 AM »

Bees don't build igloos, people do:shock: Traditional igloos were heated w/ whale oil (and to a lesser extent, human generated body heat) and people sure don't stay in igloos for months on end w/out relieving themselves.  To suggest so or to include human activity as part of this debate as examples over how to properly house bees lacks credibility IMO Smiley.

What is 'natural' for a bee hive?  

I don't know, but I've seen and heard of them occupying some pretty strange places 'other than' trees.  

There was a pic floating around here awhile back w/ a colony occupying an empty gas tank.  Hows that for preference?  

Honestly, it seems clear that a lot of this banter serves only to stroke the egos of some presenters and offers little real insight into "bee behavior" or bee preference which is what I'm looking for (guess its why I always get sucked into these discussions grin)."

thomas
the specieis of occupant/contructor  of an igloo is irelavent to its thermal behaviour.

If you dont want analogy - then go read the scientific literature on bee behaviour they show conclusively bees prefer bottom entrances over top entrances,  and do the maths on the conduction and convection characterisitic of tree cavitys . And you will find the bees "know" their physics. Go read the papers of prof Thomas Seeley or his books.
Although bees will put up with substandard accomodation they have a distinct preference for better.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
derekm
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2011, 09:56:23 AM »

ASK the BEES
Do your bees want a top vent or entrance?
Create a top vent about 2~4 sq cm. Cover it with a mesh with about 1mm ~ 2mm holes.
Then let the bees decide.
if they dont want it they will propolise it over. If they do want a top vent/entrance, they will leave it clear.


Do your bees  want more insulation?
Increase the insulation - and ask the same question as above vent or no topvent? if they change their mind about the top vent or start fanning all the time its obviously too warm.


My bees even in an insulated hive wanted it closed even at 10c nights
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
S.M.N.Bee
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2011, 10:02:07 AM »

Jack

I incurage you to try your idea. I built an insulated cover out of 1 1/2" thermax last winter and ran it on my one and only hive.
It worked quite well. The bees seamed to stay warm and dry.

The box I built had three inches of thermax in the top, one and a half inches on the sides and included a one and a half inch space between the hive and box. I than screwed three wooden angles to the sides and back
of the hive for the insulated box to sit on leaving the front open. I also drilled some vent. holes in the insulated box witch I plug or remove depending on the weather.

Good luck
John
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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2011, 10:06:53 AM »

ASK the BEES
Do your bees want a top vent or entrance?
Create a top vent. Cover it a mesh with about 1mm ~ 2mm holes.
Then let the bees decide.
if they dont want it they will propolise it over. If they do want a top vent/entrance, they will leave it clear.


Do your bees  want more insulation?
Increase the insulation - and ask the same question as above vent or no topvent? if they change their mind about the top vent or start fanning all the time its obviously too warm.


My bees even in an insulated hive wanted it closed even at 10c nights



and what bees answered. They did say nothing. They just drew conclusion and vahished. = DCV

 
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derekm
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2011, 12:53:26 PM »



and what bees answered. They did say nothing. They just drew conclusion and vahished. = DCV

 

DCV=CCD? (colony collapse disorder)

I am still on "speaking terms" with my colonies  and I still have them  Smiley
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
CapnChkn
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2011, 03:31:55 PM »

Ok, Derekm,

I'll try just once.  Nowhere have I said, written, implied, or inferred that insulating a hive is a waste of time.  In fact I've said that the winter will be more survivable if the temperature is closer to the winter climate of North Carolina than Central Minnesota.

I can safely assume when you bed down you cover yourself with a cloth of some kind.  I once got the idea I could make an emergency sleeping bag from the packing cellulose foam from shipping furniture.  Great stuff, but didn't allow any exchange of air.  I was warm, but soaked within minutes.  A blanket allows for fresh air to creep in while the moisture laden air seeps out through the holes in the weave.  I'm using the same foam between the outer and inner covers, I don't have those oblong holes in the center of my inner covers.

You are making the assumption the bees are heating the inside of the hive body.  Just because you feel the warmth in the hive does not mean they are intentionally heating it.  That is anthropomorphising.  The bees are balling up and heating that ball.  When the USDA says the bees don't heat the inside of the hive, but ball up to conserve that heat in the cluster I don't use choplogic to justify my picture of bees sitting around a wood stove, drinking cowboy coffee and eating cow pies.

The flaw in your observations is that a mass of bees will have to produce a certain number of calories to keep the inside temperature, and replace the numbers with new heat producers.  If brood production is stopped until the relative start of spring to conserve stores, the surviving bees will have to produce that much more heat to maintain the inside temperature.  Those sugars and proteins will produce more waste products than Carbon Dioxide and Water vapor.  Though less bees would use the same stores, they would produce more solid wastes per capita, meaning more cleansing flights, and work themselves to death more quickly.

It's pretty obvious you didn't actually read my post, because I had already answered one question you asked, "q3: given your anser to q1 what happens to the water vapour."  It goes out t'hole meboyo!  Water vapor has a lower specific gravity than air.  Even if the inside temperature and outside are the same the water vapor still rises.

In fact your argument that the bees decide is ad hominem.  If you cover an upper entrance with mesh 1/8 an inch (3mm) or less, they will propolize it pretty much anyway.  You should leave it open.  I've seen entire openings to tree hives closed with propolis, and I had one hive try to cover a hole of 2cm^2 in the heat of summer.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject, I'll let you get back to disproving Einstein.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2011, 05:22:26 PM »


insulation and ventilation options. No way! They are not alternatives.
I think they are alternatives in the sense that one can compensate for the other.  If you have less insulation, the interior temp of the hive will be lower and therefore you are more likely to have condensation.  More ventilation will reduce the probability of condensation and so it compensates for less insulation.  That trade-off may not make sense in Finland but it does make sense in North Carolina.

Quote
"Bees die for dampness not for cold". The most stupid sentence beekeepers have ever invented.  
Bees don't die from cold in North Carolina. In a normal year, it only takes 3 frames of honey to take  7 frames of bees from early December until they can bring in Spring forage.  It does not get cold enough to kill the bees outright.  And it's not cold enough to force them to use up all their food if you give them 3 frames.  And most of that 3 frames is used to raise brood in February.  Pollen starts in late February and nectar in March.  

The bees may die from starvation if the winter weather is too warm.  Then they may use up all their food because they fly when there is no forage.  And yes, the bees can die from "dampness" if condensate drips on the cluster.
Quote

Beekeepers do not understand either the meaning of warm hive in Spring build up. Spring is long. In our climate it is 3 months when the hive has the brood temperature 36C and food consumption is high. Weather are often so bad that bees cannot come out.
Spring in North Carolina lasts about 6 weeks,  March 7- April 21.  May can be very hot.   The bees will have moderate forage although the main flow starts in late April or early May.   This is where an open screened bottom board can help.  Hives with open bottoms warm up faster each day.  The bees will fly earlier and can gather more forage in a day because they got an early start.  It's very different from Finland.   grin
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derekm
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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2011, 05:58:13 PM »

...
You are making the assumption the bees are heating the inside of the hive body.  Just because you feel the warmth in the hive does not mean they are intentionally heating it.  That is anthropomorphising.  The bees are balling up and heating that ball.  When the USDA says the bees don't heat the inside of the hive, but ball up to conserve that heat in the cluster I don't use choplogic to justify my picture of bees sitting around a wood stove, drinking cowboy coffee and eating cow pies.

In fact your argument that the bees decide is ad hominem.  ...
I suggest you look up the  meaniing of  "ad hominem" .  i also suggest you look at fig 11 in the work you cite of the usda. you will see there that the bees succeed in partially heating up a insulated hive.
 Bee s in winter in  produce 20watts. They keep what they can of their winter population warm, with the level of heat that they have. That they cannot heat an entire hive with thermal losses of greater than 1w per degree centrade to 34c with an ambient below 14c is simple arithematic. I am not using "chop logic", if you want me to cite papers and books on bee behaviour  and take you through the maths of the heat  flow, I can.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
rdy-b
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« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2011, 07:09:25 PM »

  you guys are getting pretty deep-  cheesy in my hives when it gets real cold
 the bees form tight cluster and they dont try to heat the hive body-they
* maintain heat in the cluster*-this is a characteristic of EHB-however there
 are bees that dont form tight cluster-AHB for example-RDY-B

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Finski
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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2011, 11:49:28 PM »

.
Bees heat the cluster. It has been explained in every single beekeeping book.

BUT THE CLUSTER LEAKS HEAT AND HEAT THE CAVITY.

Apis mellifera  has learned to use tree cavity as its home, because the cavity keeps the cluster warm.

Apis cerana like to live in open space. It keeps all the time 36 temp in the cluster.

If you understand the big evolution, you understand perhaps the meaning of tree cavity.

Have you heard that mellifera lives in stone cavities?
But cerana love to make its combs onto stone surface in Japan.
In Japan cerana lives at the level of Texas.

The mesh floor warm up the bee hive! ....yes and our cows can fly....
Last I read that tar paper warm up the hive.





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rdy-b
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2011, 12:12:33 AM »

  maybe put bees in sunshine not shadows of cold wind-- Wink RDY-B
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Finski
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2011, 01:27:49 AM »

.
How the hives stay warm at night and over rainy week?

When I heat the hives in Spring  bees like electrict heating up to 17C day temp. Over that bees start to ventilate extra heat away.

Strange is that biggest hives get best advantage from electrict. Best advantage comes in May.
Night temps are near zero celsius and days are  +5 - +15C. Under freezing point nights are usual.
+20C warm spells are rare.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2011, 02:01:07 AM »

*Strange is that biggest hives get best advantage from electrict. Best advantage comes in May.
Night temps are near zero celsius and days are  +5 - +15C. Under freezing point nights are usual.
+20C warm spells are rare.*
                                                                                                                                                                 

strange indeed -no advantage to dead bees in snow-bees fly out and fall to snow stunned by cold
save electric for blanket for your feet-- Smiley  RDY-B
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2011, 05:17:22 AM »

Quote
there are bees that dont form tight cluster-AHB for example-RDY-B

RDY-B, do you think the inability of AHB to survive in higher latitudes is a factor of smaller clusters, knowing AHB have a tendency to swarm more often, or looser clusters?  I mean, "smaller" not having enough bees, or "looser" meaning not keeping the heat in?
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T Beek
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« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2011, 06:04:24 AM »

As this thread deteriorates it has only further confirmed my long held belief that "all beekeeping is local" and some beekeepers just like to go on and on and on and on grin insisting that everyone must 'see it their way' (and that just ain't gonna happen.  Not w/ this group Wink

Take some breaths and practice some acceptance please Smiley.

Its been said (many times) before but some don't like to read complete posts (a lot like another human flaw, that of not listening when someone else is talking, and on the web, there's no excuse for it). 

What works in the UK, Finland, Wisconsin, California or North Carolina doesn't necessarily work 'well' someplace else.  A concept that's hard to grasp for some it seems, even for some brainiacs grin

thomas
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Tommyt
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« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2011, 06:58:41 AM »

 The moisture in the hives is good for the Bees
The use it for drinking water
transported Florida cracker has figured the whole thing out
Good Day grin
Tommyt
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2011, 07:32:27 AM »


The mesh floor warm up the bee hive! ....yes and our cows can fly....

Yes, because there are big swings in temperature between day and night in the early spring. The SBB allows warm outside air to come quickly into the hive and gets the bees flying early in the day.  Yes, the SBB makes the hive colder at night but it's warmer by 10AM.  It's a good trade-off in the Spring.
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Finski
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« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2011, 11:26:29 AM »

.
If we play natural, Apis mellifera should no be on American continent.

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Finski
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« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2011, 11:35:42 AM »


Yes, because there are big swings in temperature between day and night in the early spring. The SBB allows warm outside air to come quickly into the hive and gets the bees flying early in the day. 


i am really tired to talk that nonsence.

Bees have steady temperature in heir hives  they are not lizards which heat themselves in the morning sun.

Often nectar has so much water in the morning that it is bad idea to go forage morning mist from flowers. What bee do is that they bring very ealy drinking water from mist droplets.

Mesh floor for ever!

Yes, I cannot win stupid in depating. I must admit my loss.  Mesh floor heats hives. Wow. Why I byed terrarium heaters?

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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2011, 11:46:06 AM »

Bees have steady temperature in heir hives  they are not lizards which heat themselves in the morning sun.

The hive box is NOT at a steady temperature.  The cluster is.  The capped brood is.  But the interior of the box varies between day and night, at least if you don't use a lot of insulation.  grin 

I can watch my hives which are in a long row.  As the morning sun rises over the trees and moves across the beeyard, each hive wakes up and starts to fly in the order that the sun hits them.  The combination of open bottoms and sunshine heats the hive up quickly.

Insulation works both ways.  It prevents heat loss at night and prevents warming in the morning.  If you have long periods of cold weather, that's fine because the bees aren't going to be flying anyway.  And we block our SBB by 90% in the winter.  But in the spring we remove the wind block so the hive can heat up in the morning.
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"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
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