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Author Topic: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.  (Read 7638 times)
rdy-b
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« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2011, 03:01:50 PM »

 yes i read it--i understand what they are saying- Smiley
 i also understand that when bees arnt in cluster they are flying
 i also understand that free flying bees consume more food than clustered bees
 if you have a warm autumn and winter is late your bees will fly for a longer period
 of time --this is a bad thing for bees and beekeeper--reason being they are running
through there winter stores at a rapid rate and winter hasnt arrived--on the other
hand if winter is early bees form tight cluster and only consume enough food to maintain heat--
 insulation to maintain heat is one thing that even the bees themselves do-are you loseing colonies
from cold or are they to far from food and starve--??? RDY-B








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Finski
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« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2011, 03:43:15 PM »

yes i read it--i understand what they are saying- Smiley
 i also understand that when bees arnt in cluster they are flying
 i also understand that free flying bees consume more food than clustered bees
 if you have a warm autumn and winter is late your bees will fly for a longer period


what ever the autumn is, flowers have prapered to winter. Nothing has bloomed for long time.
Bees do not fly, because there are no flowers.  They do not fly for fun.

Melliferas original home is in Africa. Honeybees do better in warm climate and it over winters better in warm weather.

It is wrong to think that warm weather makes something bad to bees. Folks are allways asking that.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2011, 03:57:25 PM »

  its not bad for bees -they just fly and burn up there food-happened hear last dec
had a warm spell for two weeks-bees flying everyday-when they should have been sleeping
 it burns there food-it burns there vitillogene and it tears up there wings--those where supposed
to be long lived winter bees-i am shure it caused harm to there longevity--RDY-B
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Stone
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« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2011, 04:37:35 PM »

A correction you dont need venting, its just covienent not essential.
ideally It takes about 1 litre per minute to vent the moisture from 12Kg of sugar eaten over 5 months... and it will lose about  5% upwards of the heat gained from the 12kg... (yes I have done the maths) if you make a mistake and vent 20litres per minute you have lost the lot!!!
A cold(er) point (or colder sides) can effectively condense out all of the water and  lose 0% upwards of the heat the bees use.
(think of the heat difference in water at 99.9C and steam at 100.1).


Derekm,

I'm trying to understand your post above.  Are you saying that if one provides a side (wall) condensation surface (provided the top is insulated to provide a higher surface temperature) it is not necessary to vent a hive??
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Finski
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« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2011, 05:00:03 PM »

  its not bad for bees -they just fly and burn up there food-happened hear last dec
had a warm spell for two weeks-bees flying everyday-when they should have been sleeping
 it burns there food-it burns there vitillogene and it tears up there wings--those where supposed
to be long lived winter bees-i am shure it caused harm to there longevity--RDY-B

it seems to the secret of CCD. Thousands of hives on small area and no food.
But there are around there globe same kind of areas, but CCD is only in USA.
USA is only country which collects so much hives on "wintering area".

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derekm
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« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2011, 05:42:06 PM »

A correction you dont need venting, its just covienent not essential.
ideally It takes about 1 litre per minute to vent the moisture from 12Kg of sugar eaten over 5 months... and it will lose about  5% upwards of the heat gained from the 12kg... (yes I have done the maths) if you make a mistake and vent 20litres per minute you have lost the lot!!!
A cold(er) point (or colder sides) can effectively condense out all of the water and  lose 0% upwards of the heat the bees use.
(think of the heat difference in water at 99.9C and steam at 100.1).


Derekm,

I'm trying to understand your post above.  Are you saying that if one provides a side (wall) condensation surface (provided the top is insulated to provide a higher surface temperature) it is not necessary to vent a hive??
to remove moisture yes, after all thats how a dehumidifier works...  A shielded bottom opening is still required for C02, bee, o2  egress and for the bees to perform heat management.... You
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rdy-b
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« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2011, 06:19:00 PM »

  its not bad for bees -they just fly and burn up there food-happened hear last dec
had a warm spell for two weeks-bees flying everyday-when they should have been sleeping
 it burns there food-it burns there vitillogene and it tears up there wings--those where supposed
to be long lived winter bees-i am shure it caused harm to there longevity--RDY-B

it seems to the secret of CCD. Thousands of hives on small area and no food.
But there are around there globe same kind of areas, but CCD is only in USA.
USA is only country which collects so much hives on "wintering area".
Finski

they do same thing in finland--how else you gona tend your bees -cast them about like grains of sand-- :loll:
you are referring to the large holding yards that are a product of the largest migratory movement in the world
yada yada yada- Wink yes we can learn a lot from these types of things -its not a secrete-do you want graphs and spread sheets on this also--- grin
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Finski
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« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2011, 06:25:27 PM »

[
you are referring to the large holding yards that are a product of the largest migratory movement in the world


They are reindeers here. You know Santa's logistics centre.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2011, 06:29:47 PM »

 you now VANNA   Smiley

 
VANINA IN ROOM HONEY EXTRATION

     

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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »


- how can it be higher when the brood temperature is 36C

The brood temp is 36 but the hive box interior  temperature may be colder than the outside temperature.  Most of the thermal mass in a hive is honey.  It is not generating heat. If your bees are in cluster, the cluster is warm but outside the cluster may not be.   I don't know what your hive box temperature is because you are using boxes made of insulation material rather than wood.  But if you have an uninsulated wooden box with SBB, the hive box interior temperature will be lower than the outside temperature once the sun comes up in the Spring  Honestly, I don't know why your bees use so much food in the winter.  If they stay in cluster and your insulation is so good, why do they use 40kg of sugar? My bees use about 10kg.  And they are not insulated.  And the wind comes in the bottom.   grin
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- and why it should keep bees in cluster?

If the hive has SBB, it will be colder inside the hive box at night and the bees will go into cluster.  If the box is sealed and made of insulation, maybe the bees are not in cluster and use more food?
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 Bees keep the hive warm, not sun. Can't you understand that.

I understand that the sun does not warm your hives.  grin  But if you have an SBB and you live in the sunny South, the sun will warm up the outside temperature warmer than the hive box interior and the flow of air through the SBB then warms up the interior air.  Our temperature could be 25 degrees at night and rise to 75 or 80 the next day. And there is a heating effect of the sun shining directly on the hive also.  So the hive interior temp (not the brood  or the cluster) may fall below freezing  The next morning as the outdoor temperature rises and the sun shines on the hive box, the interior temperature of the hive will rise and the bees will come out of cluster.

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What I think in Spring is that is it enough that bees can fly to willows and get pollen.
Why should they warm up early?
Well Finski, I guess if they get up earlier, they will have more time to gather pollen?  And since most hive that starve do so in the Spring, I like to have my bees out getting as much nectar as they can.   So your lazy bees like to stay in their warm bed and sleep late?   grin
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Many beekeers use here mesh floor. Many are mad with them. Some keep them open all the time, some close them for winter. A mesh floor is a religion. So called "modern beekeeper's bottom.  - heh!

We close our about 90% in Winter.  That blocks the wind but still gives plenty of ventilation.  But I'm not religious about anything.  If I see that closed boxes worked better, I would use closed boxes.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 07:26:54 PM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2011, 01:05:07 AM »

 Honestly, I don't know why your bees use so much food in the winter.  If they stay in cluster and your insulation is so good, why do they use 40kg of sugar? My bees use about 10kg.  And they are not insulated.  And the wind comes in the bottom.   grin
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honestly I do not understand are you spamming there or not. I did not come this forum to debate, what you have there.

- I take all honey away and bye on  average 20 kg sugar per hive. From where that 40 kg came?

- your hives consume 10 kg. You do not even have winter. Your main flow in in Marsh when we have one metre snow.  My bees live 9 months  with 20 kg sugar. 

- long hives are not beehives.  how yout get there 70 frames?


frameshift. We have debated for days for nothing. I was not ment to give advices to deep south where palm trees grow and sun warms in January.

If you need not insulation, it does not mean that Minnesota, Canada or Alaska do not need insulation.

And long hives, burn them like I did 45 years ago.
Childhood is over.
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derekm
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« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2011, 03:37:27 AM »

Reality: today we had our first frost - outside temp at 8am: 0C...

Pu hive (0.4K) inside temp at roof level: 41C

inside temp at  floor level (15% ~13% open area sheilded ) measurement point  rear far  corner from 30 sq cm open  angled tunnel  entrance:  18C

 Bee type: Buckfast, originally  from a bee breeder 40 miles NW from my location.

bee activitiy:one or two scouts out flying  the rest are staying home at the moment

note: 18C floor is  within 1 or 2 degrees of where it has been since september when they went in and entrance was opened wide




Did someone say bees dont regulate hive temperature?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 03:50:03 AM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
FRAMEshift
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« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2011, 08:41:12 AM »


honestly I do not understand are you spamming there or not. I did not come this forum to debate, what you have there.
No, of course you didn't.  That is my point.  We did not come here to debate what you have in Finland either.  But you always tell us that we are wrong because we don't do things your way.    I think you are a good beekeeper.  It's just that the trade-offs are different.  I can build my own boxes out of wood.  That is less expensive.  I can put in a screened bottom instead of wood.  That is cheaper and faster to build.  I can leave honey instead of feeding sugar.  That is better for the bees and I am not interested in selling honey anyway.  We all do what works for us.  You do that.  I do that.
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- I take all honey away and bye on  average 20 kg sugar per hive. From where that 40 kg came?
My mistake.  You said 20 kg.  I converted in my head to 40 lbs.  Then I remembered the number 40 and forgot that it was lbs instead of kg. 
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- your hives consume 10 kg. You do not even have winter. Your main flow in in Marsh when we have one metre snow.  My bees live 9 months  with 20 kg sugar. 
We do have some Winter, but not like yours.  Main flow is in May and June.  And yes, I think your bees are very efficient.  I was joking with you about how much food they use, but I do wonder if your bees stay in cluster all Winter.
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- long hives are not beehives.  how yout get there 70 frames?
Why would I need 70 frames?  I have 33 frames maximum.  I manage that space to get maximum honey or maximum splits or some combination of honey and splits.
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frameshift. We have debated for days for nothing. I was not ment to give advices to deep south where palm trees grow and sun warms in January.

If you need not insulation, it does not mean that Minnesota, Canada or Alaska do not need insulation.
I agree.  I don't try to tell you that you must use SBB.  I don't try to tell you that you must use wooden boxes or long hives.   So.....
Quote

And long hives, burn them like I did 45 years ago.
Childhood is over.
.....why do you tell me I should use Langstroths?
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2011, 08:55:19 AM »

Reality: today we had our first frost - outside temp at 8am: 0C...
Derekm, thanks for making these measurements.  Yes, actual reality does help the discussion along doesn't it.   grin
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Pu hive (0.4K) inside temp at roof level: 41C
Ok, what exactly is a Pu hive.  What is it made of and where do you get them?
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inside temp at  floor level (15% ~13% open area sheilded ) measurement point  rear far  corner from 30 sq cm open  angled tunnel  entrance:  18C

note: 18C floor is  within 1 or 2 degrees of where it has been since september when they went in and entrance was opened wide

Did someone say bees dont regulate hive temperature?
Do you think the bees are carefully regulating temperature to hold the floor at 18?   No, that is just a byproduct of the hive geometry, the rate at which they generate heat for other purposes, the size and position of the opening to the outside, etc.  Are they carefully regulating the roof level at 41?  No, that is higher than brood temperature so it must be an accidental result of the heat that is generated below, the insulation at the top, the amount of air circulation, etc.   I think the bees regulate cluster temperature and brood temperature.  The other temperatures around the box are less important and I don't think they are actively regulated.

Are your bees in cluster when it is 0 degrees outside?  Once the forage season is over, wouldn't your bees use less food if they were in cluster?  Does that mean that your insulated hive is making the bees consume more food?  These are the questions I am considering when I think about how much insulation to use, where that insulation should be placed, and whether I want an open SBB or a solid floor.
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Finski
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« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2011, 09:46:10 AM »

 

But you always tell us that we are wrong because we don't do things your way.    

.....why do you tell me I should use Langstroths?

oK. You just told that you do not want to sell honey. DON'T USE LANGSTROTH. You will get honey if you use them!

This year I had a hive on balance.. In 5 weeks it brought 280 lbs honey and draw 4 boxes foundations. Reason was that we had good weathers. I was just lucky. No skills.
During one week the hive brought  14 pounds per day. In one week  it means almost 100 bounds. During that time it was queenless.

The hive had 8 boxes, 5 langstroths + 3 mediums. It was not my best hive.

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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2011, 12:24:45 PM »

oK. You just told that you do not want to sell honey. DON'T USE LANGSTROTH. You will get honey if you use them!

If I want to get the kind of honey you get per hive, I would have to manage the honey section very carefully.  I would have to remove frames of capped honey every week to make room for more.   And even then I could not match you because we don't have the intense and extended main flow that you have.

My long hive is the equivalent of 3 Langstroth boxes.  If I want to go bigger, I start a new long hive.  So then I have the equivalent to your hive but with two separate queens and two separate brood nests and honey sections.  Maybe then I could have a slight chance to match you.   grin

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This year I had a hive on balance.. In 5 weeks it brought 280 lbs honey and draw 4 boxes foundations. Reason was that we had good weathers. I was just lucky. No skills.
During one week the hive brought  14 pounds per day. In one week  it means almost 100 bounds. During that time it was queenless.


Finski that is amazing.  You are the Man!  It must be tremendous fun to see that much beautiful honey coming in.  I don't think it's just luck.  You obviously have the skills to make it work.  If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it.   shocked
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derekm
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« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2011, 12:52:34 PM »

Ok, what exactly is a Pu hive.  What is it made of and where do you get them?
Alu foil coated polyurethane foam - much higher thermal performance than polystyrene 2" PU is the equilvaent of  3" polystryrene. I make my own from material bought from a builders merchant.
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... I think the bees regulate cluster temperature and brood temperature.  The other temperatures around the box are less important and I don't think they are actively regulated.
I have an open mind on this, remember I'm operating a hive unlike any other. So i'm switching on the behaviours used in thick walled tree cavities with a copious lining of rotted wood. and of course all of the cavitiy is potential brood  not just a central zone. I'm not assuming that these behaviours are just  part of a continuum from uninsulated shelters
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Are your bees in cluster when it is 0 degrees outside?  Once the forage season is over, wouldn't your bees use less food if they were in cluster?  Does that mean that your insulated hive is making the bees consume more food?...
I doubt  they will consume more food,  but my hive is very different, the ratios of nurse bees to foragers is  visibly different ... its so just  diffferent, the bees  seem so much  more dynamic than the other hive  I split them from.

  They will do what they will do and I will observe, as I'm out on my own at 0.4K
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2011, 01:13:15 PM »



My long hive is the equivalent of 3 Langstroth boxes.  If I want to go bigger, I start a new long hive. 

you may make a long hive troica

(troica = Russian 3 horses pulling a carry)

what is the math of holy tree, troica, holy trinity,  = two is too few and four is too much.

F
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2011, 01:52:39 PM »

I have an open mind on this, remember I'm operating a hive unlike any other. So i'm switching on the behaviours used in thick walled tree cavities with a copious lining of rotted wood. and of course all of the cavitiy is potential brood  not just a central zone. I'm not assuming that these behaviours are just  part of a continuum from uninsulated shelters
A couple of thoughts.  Yes, bees need to be sheltered from wind and rain.  But do they really benefit from thick walled, highly insulated spaces?  Are there hollow trees with thin walls?  Maybe the bees use thick walled hollow trees because that's all they have available.  

I would not have said that all of the cavity is potential brood.  Bees are very careful about concentrating the brood nest and not scattering it out over the available space.  They have an interest in keeping brood at the proper temperature for development and that is done more efficiently when it is close together.  Temperatures away from cluster and brood are not temperature-critical.  And I can't see them expending energy to heat a space they aren't actively using. But I understand that you are not making assumptions and just want to observe what is really happening.... whatever that may be.
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Are your bees in cluster when it is 0 degrees outside?  Once the forage season is over, wouldn't your bees use less food if they were in cluster?  Does that mean that your insulated hive is making the bees consume more food?...

 I doubt  they will consume more food,  but my hive is very different, the ratios of nurse bees to foragers is  visibly different ... its so just  diffferent, the bees  seem so much  more dynamic than the other hive  I split them from.
Have you described this in another thread?  This is interesting.  How has the ratio of nurse bees to foragers changed? 

Do you know at what outdoor temp your bees go into cluster?  I know that bees use less energy when they are in cluster, but maybe lots of insulation offsets that advantage over a long period of time.
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 They will do what they will do and I will observe, as I'm out on my own at 0.4K
Sorry, I must have missed this.  What is .4K?
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derekm
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« Reply #99 on: October 15, 2011, 02:37:54 PM »

 

I would not have said that all of the cavity is potential brood.
 
in poly hives of all types you get brood top to bottom all the way to outside walls
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This is interesting.  How has the ratio of nurse bees to foragers changed? 

there's a not alot of bees in the hive for the area of brood
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Sorry, I must have missed this.  What is .4K?
0.4 watts per degree C. A standard hive is 6K thats a factor of 15 different.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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