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Author Topic: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.  (Read 7266 times)
S.M.N.Bee
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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2011, 08:37:13 PM »


It's like that bold saying that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, Southern Minnesota was also a challenge this year.
Cold spring lasted till the end of June. July and Augest brought record heat. Then it stopped raining and fall was nothing but dearth.

Like the farmers say. Theres always next year.

John
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2011, 08:48:50 PM »

I worked outside and inside in construction with buildings of various levels of insulation and closure. I've actually built and slept in an igloo.  I've built lived and slept in a tipi up in the mountains in the winter.  I've lived in a 9x9 tent and a lean too.  I've lived in the back of a station wagon.  Pretty much everything.  I can tell you the thermo dynamics of a basically unheated space (other than body heat) is much different than most of you imagine.  Some things make a bigger difference than you think and some make a smaller difference than you think.  Space is a big factor.  A smaller space is much warmer.  Color is a big factor.  White is much warmer than green.  The thickness of the fabric is a big factor.  Thicker is noticeably warmer.  A double wall is noticeably warmer.  A lot of thick insulation makes less of a difference, once you are up to thick fabric in a double wall, although it makes some, it also messes with some of the air flow if you fill that double wall space with leaves, grass, etc.  You need a certain amount of ventilation to prevent condensation.  The double wall helps with this as well.  Condensation dripping on you is a real problem in the winter.  A wet sleeping bag will kill you.  If you want to test some of your theoretical concepts in reality, try building a tent and sleeping in it in the winter and then make those adjustments you think will help and see how much difference they do or do not make.

Here is a list of some of the factors:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering
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Michael Bush
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2011, 11:35:25 PM »

Lots of honey does not make beekeeping 'easier' in the North. 
thomas

You are correct of course.  When I said "it is easier in colder climates"  the "it" I was referring to was the task of synchronizing maximum bees with maximum flow.  I just meant that one long flow is a bigger target than two smaller flows.  I don't think cold climate beekeeping is easy by any means.
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CapnChkn
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« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2011, 12:32:31 PM »

Quote
If you want to test some of your theoretical concepts in reality, try building a tent and sleeping in it in the winter and then make those adjustments you think will help and see how much difference they do or do not make.

Yessir!  This I have done!  I can't say I've had the experience you have Mr. Bush, but I can lay claim to at least the above statement.  I can tell all keeping dry by laying a tarp on the floor is important, that a mattress is worth several hours of sleep than keeping dry when you are sleeping on the ground.  If you want to be comfortable, a tent stove is like heaven.

"How bees regulate temperature," is always a bone of contention here at Beemaster.  This thread has jumped up 2 pages in the 24 hours I left it alone.  I have to say how they keep warm isn't so much an issue than what condition the colony is in at the start of brooding in the spring.
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derekm
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« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2011, 01:47:51 PM »

...
some potentially misleading statements in there

" A smaller space is much warmer" A smaller space is not warmer it just has less surface area to lose heat by conduction, and less volume to create stratification.

"A lot of thick insulation makes less of a difference, once you are up to thick fabric in a double wall, although it makes some,"  Thermal resistance is Thermal resistance

"You need a certain amount of ventilation to prevent condensation." This is incorrect. You just need to keep the relative humidity under control in the volumes and places where you  you need to control it.
Ventilation is only one of a number of solutions to this . e.g. dehumidifiers, preferential cooling, desisicants.
Strictly speaking  Ventilation does not prevent condensation it is just putting the place of condensation outside the volume. While attractively obvious, it has the great disadvantage of losing a lot of heat.

Having camped in both single skin and double skin tents in snow and in temperatures well below zero, inhabitated snow holes and igloos, its not just theoretical.

 A final comment,  you seem to get away with  a lot more "anthropomorhizing" from the readers, than  other contributors.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 02:04:38 PM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
KD4MOJ
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« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2011, 02:24:17 PM »

A final comment,  you seem to get away with  a lot more "anthropomorhizing" from the readers, than  other contributors.

WOW! I actually had to look up anthropomorhizing!  grin   Good reading this thread has been...

...DOUG
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derekm
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« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2011, 03:52:43 PM »

The amount of heat you need to waste inorder to remove the moisture contributed by respiration is only about 10% of the heat gained from the honey the bees consume.
Thus if the colony is producing 20 Watts in still air  you should only need to chill 2 Watts away to remove the moisture.  (from calorific content of honey and latent heat of vapourisation of the contained and generated water) We should be able to aim for 5 Watts. Top entrances blow the whole 20 Watts away and then some more.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Michael Bush
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« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2011, 01:06:43 AM »

>" A smaller space is much warmer" A smaller space is not warmer it just has less surface area to lose heat by conduction, and less volume to create stratification.

Anyone who has stayed in both knows they (the creature) are less cold in a smaller space.  You can argue all you want about what the thermometer says.

>"A lot of thick insulation makes less of a difference, once you are up to thick fabric in a double wall, although it makes some,"  Thermal resistance is Thermal resistance

From the point of view of how chilled you get, that first little bit makes a lot of difference.  After that it makes a lot less.

>"You need a certain amount of ventilation to prevent condensation." This is incorrect. You just need to keep the relative humidity under control in the volumes and places where you  you need to control it.

But since you create the humidity by respiration and by metabolism, that moisture has to go somewhere.

>Ventilation is only one of a number of solutions to this . e.g. dehumidifiers, preferential cooling, desisicants.

I never had an outlet for a dehumidifier in a tent or a beehive.

>Strictly speaking  Ventilation does not prevent condensation it is just putting the place of condensation outside the volume. While attractively obvious, it has the great disadvantage of losing a lot of heat.

It depends on the amount how that affects your bodies heat loss.  A little is enough to prevent condensation and that is not noticeable.


>Having camped in both single skin and double skin tents in snow and in temperatures well below zero, inhabitated snow holes and igloos, its not just theoretical.

My point exactly.  I have done all of the above.

> A final comment,  you seem to get away with  a lot more "anthropomorhizing" from the readers, than  other contributors.

I am describing a warm blooded organism with a metabolism that creates CO2 and water from sugar, in an outdoor unheated habitation; and comparing it to a warm blooded superorganism  with a metabolism that creates CO2 and water from sugar, in an outdoor unheated habitation.  I think that is a reasonable comparison.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Finski
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« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2011, 05:33:39 AM »

 .
I can see that folks have serious promlems to understan insulating.

Insulating is not ment to  hinder condensation. It ismeant to keep bees warm and save their winterfood.
In Pring insulation accelerate Spring build up.

IF YOU LIVE IN WARM CLIMATE AND YOU DON'T NEED INSULATION, DON'T TRY TO CLAIME THE IN COLDER CLIMATE IT IS NOT NEEDED.

The mesh bottom has nothing to do with insulation. It makes the hive colder that fast bottom. At leat it does not heat the hive and neither does the tarpaper. BEES DO THEIR HEAT FROM FOOD.

you should understand that if my hives need 20 kg on average winter food at the level of Anchorage, how in the warmer climate and in 2-3 months shorter winter  are needed  60 kg  winterfood. Something to do with insulation.

 But the most important thing is locally adapted beestock.  If the bees are from south and do not form a winter cluster in time, no food will save the hive. You do not even handle this issue.

One Langstroth box can contain 25 kg honey or food.


That stupid condensation has been raised the huge wintering problem. But it is the smallest one.
If you have a mesh floor, you need not to know nothing about condensation.
If you have a fast bottom, drill into front wall a 15 mm hole and that's it.

Cold kills the hive when food is finish. So simple. If you have insulation, food will be consumed much less, 30% - 50%. If a colony keeps too high temp in its hive they will be dead in the middle of winter.

When bees make a winter cluster in Autumn, they consume only one kg food in month.
(out temp is 0-10C)


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JackM
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« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2011, 09:35:32 AM »

Finiski is right, few understand insulation and venting.  Some folks have parts of it right, some don't, some have things confused.

First, when I say venting, I an not meaning full airflow through the hive.  Venting is a passive act of allowing a small amount of air with moisture to passively move out of the heated area and still supply a volume of fresh oxygen.  

It is much easier to keep a small space at temperature than a large one, but the factors of heat loss will remain the same regardless of size.  The key with the smaller size is that there is less wasted space that needs heat.  Dead air space is what insulation creates, regardless of the type of insulation.  Now you go a wrap a hive in plastic and you just killed the ability of the moisture to permeate (vent) out of the hive.  

As soon as that occurs the moisture will condense at any point where the temperature reaches the dew point.  Protruding nails will get condensation first.  By allowing normal air flow outside the hive (Insulated or not) and keeping the dead air space inside the hive the moisture should not condense at all even if not insulated.  But there is still passive permeation of moisture away from the highest to the lower direction...just like heat moves to cold.

Insulation only slows down the movement of heat to cold....not the other way around.  Insulation creates dead air space which is where the resistance to the flow of heat is the most.  The moisture comes from the bee's normal exhalation and from the ambient humidity.  For example fiberglass under a microscope is a bunch of strands crisscrossing all over and those create air spaces.  The foams create dead air spaces as the chemicals catalyze, the smaller the better.  Cellulose actually has air spaces in the fibers themselves, but it is not suitable for this as it has pesticide in it.

Then, most of this is really mute if you are in a warm climate.  My winter climate is cool, just above freezing, horribly wet 40+ inches a year of rain.  I will vent.  You do as you please.  Once the moisture condenses you loose resistance to the flow of heat as water is a much better conductor of heat.  Those bees will be fine in an insulated hive with an inch or so of foam on the exterior.  The air will stratify and if they cluster it will make it even easier for them to keep their ideal temperature.

I also recently learned from a dude up in a wetter and cooler environment, but still local, and he believes in an empty super at the bottom of the hive below the brood frames.  He feels the bees do better in the winter with that dead air space below, which stratifies the cold and warm in the hive...think of it as a basement.  He came up with this from getting hives out of trees.  Remember, originally before man intervened, in cold climates bees used trees....because they are warm.  Wood is an awesome natural insulator.

So, the field of insulation is much more complex than most folks know.  Venting is an integral part of making insulation work properly and by doing that, you don't get condensation, even at 100% humidity.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2011, 10:48:17 AM »


The mesh bottom has nothing to do with insulation. It makes the hive colder than fast bottom. At least it does not heat the hive
Finski, my point was that if the outside temperature is higher than the inside temperature, the screened bottom allows the hive interior to heat up faster in the morning.  The inverse is also true.  At night the hive will be colder because of the SBB.  In a moderate Spring climate, that's ok.  It keeps the bees in cluster at night and gets them moving in the morning.  That is ideal. 

But this only works where there is a large swing in temperatures between day and night.  In the Springtime, extreme cold is not a problem but lack of morning warmth is a problem.  I have lived as far north as 64 degrees N.  I know that the Spring sun is weak. But at 36N  it may be cold at night but very warm as the sun comes up.  Your insulated hive will stay cold inside but an SBB hive will warm up quickly.  You are focused on protection from extreme cold.  I am thinking about warming the hive way up early in the day. 
Quote

If you have a mesh floor, you need not to know nothing about condensation.
If you have a fast bottom, drill into front wall a 15 mm hole and that's it.
We also have a small vent at the edge of the top.  It is slanted downward so it does not act as a chimney.  It does bleed off the humid air just under the top.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2011, 10:59:40 AM »

Protruding nails will get condensation first.  

In our climate... and  I think in your climate too, insulation on the exterior of the top is adequate.  If the R value of the top is higher than the R value of the sides, any condensation will occur harmlessly on the sides.  Just like your protruding nail.

Insulating only the top may not increase the overall temperature of the hive box but it changes the location of any condensation that does occur.  To the extent that stratification does occur, top insulation will warm the area near the top of the hive.  Since I use horizontal hives, that means that the area at the top of each frame where the bees cluster will be warmer.
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Finski
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« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2011, 11:40:49 AM »

[e, that's ok.  It keeps the bees in cluster at night and gets them moving in the morning.  That is ideal. 

- how can it be higher when the brood temperature is 36C
- and why it should keep bees in cluster?

 Your insulated hive will stay cold inside but an SBB hive will warm up quickly. 
-  ha hah ha and hah.  Bees keep the hive warm, not sun. Can't you understand that.
In spring hive consumes 3-4 kg in one week when it consumes in Autumn 1 kg in month.
Brood produce as much heat as a resting bee.  when a larva is full size, it looses 1/3 of its weight during pupa stage.



You are focused on protection from extreme cold. 

- my plase is not extreme cold. Canada is colder. We do not have on beekeeping area -40C like in Winnibeg Canada.


I am thinking about warming the hive way up early in the day. 

- you need not think of it. Bees take care themselves. What I think in Spring is that is it enough that bees can fly to willows and get pollen.
Why should they warm up early?

Many beekeers use here mesh floor. Many are mad with them. Some keep them open all the time, some close them for winter. A mesh floor is a religion. So called "modern beekeeper's bottom.  - heh!

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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2011, 01:26:30 PM »

Quote
Cold kills the hive when food is finish. So simple. If you have insulation, food will be consumed much* less*,30% - 50%. If a colony keeps too high temp in its hive they will be dead in the middle of winter.

When bees make a winter cluster in Autumn, they consume only one kg food in month.
(out temp is 0-10C)




  this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2011, 01:56:58 PM »



  this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B

pure nonsence...

Have yo research or balance data about this fact?

But I admit that I have killed couple of big hives when I have pressed them into too small wintering space. They have run too hot during winter.  a small cluster was outside even in January and they ventilated.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 02:13:32 PM by Finski » Logged

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derekm
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« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2011, 02:00:30 PM »

[

  this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
Do you want the citation of the research that refutes your reposte ?
that research investigates the level of insulation upto 0.75W per degree C or was higher that you were refering to?
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
rdy-b
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« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2011, 02:22:27 PM »

[

  this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
Do you want the citation of the research that refutes your reposte ?
that research investigates the level of insulation upto 0.75W per degree C or was higher that you were refering to?
are you saying that bees consume more food when they are in cluster--than when they are not??? RDY-B
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rdy-b
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« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2011, 02:25:51 PM »



  this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B

pure nonsence...

Have yo research or balance data about this fact?

But I admit that I have killed couple of big hives when I have pressed them into too small wintering space. They have run too hot during winter.  a small cluster was outside even in January and they ventilated.
.they ran hot and ate all the food-and died from starvation-- cool  RDY-B
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derekm
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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2011, 02:42:07 PM »

[

  this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
Do you want the citation of the research that refutes your reposte ?
that research investigates the level of insulation upto 0.75W per degree C or was higher that you were refering to?
are you saying that bees consume more food when they are in cluster--than when they are not??? RDY-B
I repeat
read  Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118.
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derekm
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« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2011, 02:53:05 PM »

Quote
   Wood is an awesome natural insulator.
....
So, the field of insulation is much more complex than most folks know.  Venting is an integral part of making insulation work properly and by doing that, you don't get condensation, even at 100% humidity.

A correction you dont need venting, its just covienent not essential.
ideally It takes about 1 litre per minute to vent the moisture from 12Kg of sugar eaten over 5 months... and it will lose about  5% upwards of the heat gained from the 12kg... (yes I have done the maths) if you make a mistake and vent 20litres per minute you have lost the lot!!!
A cold(er) point (or colder sides) can effectively condense out all of the water and  lose 0% upwards of the heat the bees use.
(think of the heat difference in water at 99.9C and steam at 100.1).

btw Solid wood is a mediocre insulator, it conducts many more times than foams or rotten wood.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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