Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.

[rdy-b]

As this thread deteriorates it has only further confirmed my long held belief that "all beekeeping is local" and some beekeepers just like to go on and on and on and on insisting that everyone must 'see it their way' (and that just ain't gonna happen.  Not w/ this group . 

Take some breaths and practice some acceptance please .

Its been said (many times) before but some don't like to read complete posts (a lot like another human flaw, that of not listening when someone else is talking, and on the web, there's no excuse for it). 

What works in the UK, Finland, Wisconsin, California or North Carolina doesn't necessarily work 'well' someplace else.  A concept that's hard to grasp for some it seems, even for some brainiacs

thomas

I like to hear how others do it--most of the differences that come up are on perception of science and physics
 we really do know that there are many ways -and that dose not make them wrong -but so far i would have to say that NORTH CAROLINA sounds like a good place to keep bees -keeping bees in snow country is a challenge from the start-and this thread is just a pregame warm up -every year the subject comes up wait till about DEC we have many profesors working on this isue-and thats a good thing-   RDY-B

[Finski]

.
One guy told in this forum how he wrap his hive.
He puts only to north side the tar paper,
because cold comes from north.

Yes, what works there, it does not work here.

Our cold comes from east from Russian Siberian high pressure.
UK send us the rains.

[rdy-b]

we gave you a deticated post -why dont you refer pepole to it-???
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31989.0.html
   RDY-B

[derekm]

A standard wooden hive has conductivity of  6w per degree C  and the bees need at least some of them  to be at 34C, The bees have no choice but to cluster as it would take 100s of kilogrammes of honey  to get through winter if they heated every   bee and  the volume of the hive to 34C. (yes i have done the maths)
A tree hollow has a conductivity of somewhere between 1 watt  per degree C  and 0.3w per degree C depending on the thickness of solid and rotten wood.  Now in such  a tree hollow the possibility exists for the bees not to cluster.  If the bees use 16kg of honey   in a winter, this could average out  at ~20Watts . 20watts in a tree hollow could heat the the entire hollow to 34C  even if it was  well below zero C outside.  Can bees survive in such a warm hollow? I think they have done so  for thousands of years  Do they cluster in such a hollow? probably not. However, we can conduct an experiment to find out if they do cluster even when there is no themal need.

At this moment I have a colony in a 0.4W per Degree C hive. They were split into that type of hive, and the queen has been in such a hive from egg onwards. The hive is bottom entrance, with a floor that has a plastic coated foam grill with about 15% open area. This grill is heavily shielded from draughts and cooling  from below but allows ventilation and trash to fall down and out. This floor is completely unlike any other you may have seen. in addition the  entrance is designed to shield the hive floor from drafts.

The difference in the  behavior of the bees compared to a conventional hive is remarkable. How they get on this winter we shall see.

[Stone]

Derekem,
Sounds fascinating.  Do you have photos of this?

[rdy-b]

 at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B

[kathyp]

at 54 mine fly.  they must be FHB (Finnish honey bees)   

[derekm]

Derekem,
Sounds fascinating.  Do you have photos of this?

The Nuc of the same construction is shown on bluebee poly nuc thread...  foilcoated Polyurethane foam painted green on the outside
PU nuc

[derekm]

at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B

When its 49F outside my bees just lounge around as its  still 66F+ at floor level in their hive even the entrance fully open. They must be  GBIHB

[rdy-b]

at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B

When its 49F outside my bees just lounge around as its  still 66F+ at floor level in their hive even the entrance fully open. They must be  GBIHB

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_cluster    RDY-B

  who said outside temps --I said air temp--that would be measured from air inside of hive body
 this is important because it has correlation to insulating the hive to control clustering temps-
I still think that if you insulate and trick the bees you are going to find that if they are not clustered
they will fly-thank you kathy for that supporting fact  -so if its to cold and bees fly outside they will
 be on a flight of no return--RDY-B

[derekm]

at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B

When its 49F outside my bees just lounge around as its  still 66F+ at floor level in their hive even the entrance fully open. They must be  GBIHB

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_cluster    RDY-B

if you build hives the beyond the capability of  bees to heat,  they dont heat them.  Its the thermal equivalent of proving a=a.

and bees have lived  in warm trees and lived to fly again

[T Beek]

I've had bees flying as long as its above freezing (32F), no wind and sunny, even fresh packages from Texas.

thomas

[rdy-b]

I've had bees flying as long as its above freezing (32F), no wind and sunny, even fresh packages from Texas.

thomas

lots of dead bees in the snow - suicide flight for bees --yes bees will fly when its cold-it is not
 the best thing for the bee-the bees nature is clustering at temps that are preordained by there design
 and* environment*-the bottom line is you cant keep honeybees in the cold if they dont cluster -if you think otherwise
 i am open minded to you reasoning

[Finski]

.
When bees are in winter cluster, its temp in the middle  is 23C.

If  it has brood, like in February, brood area temp is 36C

have you calculated how much a hive consumes in autumn per month when the hive has settled into cluster? I have balance measures, but what you have calculated?

Langstroth box is full of bees.

[derekm]

I've had bees flying as long as its above freezing (32F), no wind and sunny, even fresh packages from Texas.

thomas

lots of dead bees in the snow - suicide flight for bees --yes bees will fly when its cold-it is not
 the best thing for the bee-the bees nature is clustering at temps that are preordained by there design
 and* environment*-the bottom line is you cant keep honeybees in the cold if they dont cluster -if you think otherwise
 i am open minded to you reasoning

read  Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118.


apimondia use this link and search for villumstad as the author

[derekm]

.
When bees are in winter cluster, its temp in the middle  is 23C.

If  it has brood, like in February, brood area temp is 36C

have you calculated how much a hive consumes in autumn per month when the hive has settled into cluster? I have balance measures, but what you have calculated?

Langstroth box is full of bees.

finski, I dont have access to my mathematical model  on this particular PC. I recall  it uses an average  sucrose consumption for the whole winter period to determine average power.. It uses a total sucrose weight of 12.5KG over a number of months 5 IRC.  Please if you have  month by month weight consumption data I can improve my model by understanding  the maximum and minimum.

[rdy-b]

  yes good read lots of info-all the hives maintained clusters-insulated hives did better
but they did not reach point of insulation that bees did not cluster-

 there is no doubt that there can be improvements in the colony with some help to overcome
adverse environmental conditions -but we need to understand why bees respond to conditions
 that are influencing there actions-

 bees dont think they react to manipulations and conditions that are put apone them
 weather it is smoke or a insulated hive body once you go to far it is certain perele for them
  RDY-B

[derekm]

 yes good read lots of info-all the hives maintained clusters-insulated hives did better
but they did not reach point of insulation that bees did not cluster-

 there is no doubt that there can be improvements in the colony with some help to overcome
adverse environmental conditions -but we need to understand why bees respond to conditions
 that are influencing there actions-

 bees dont think they react to manipulations and conditions that are put apone them
 weather it is smoke or a insulated hive body once you go to far it is certain perele for them
  RDY-B

The only way to find out is to try it... thats what I'm doing. The behaviours of bee colonies are complex, So I think it would be a mistake to assume that  the behaviour in radically changed circumstances is going to the same.
Bee colonies will have been exposed to this level of insulation in their natural environment, but what did  the bees do?

[FRAMEshift]

so far i would have to say that NORTH CAROLINA sounds like a good place to keep bees

Well, it has it's problems too.  We have a 6 week long dearth  from mid July till the end of August.  The way to get alot of honey is to have the largest possible number of bees when the maximum flow is on.  But our flow is divided into two  parts.... the main one in the Spring and then another minor flow in the Fall.  So we end up with lots of bees in August when there is no forage.  They still want to eat, so much of the honey from Spring gets eaten by the bees in late Summer.  It's easier in colder climates because there is just one long flow season and if you can build up a bunch of bees, they all get a shot at bringing in forage.  

The heaviest honey crops in the US are in Minnesota and South Dakota.  More like Finland than North Carolina.

[T Beek]

Lots of honey does not make beekeeping 'easier' in the North.  That's an assumption based on historical yields which 'can' be outstanding during outstanding 'honey' years which has little to do the amount of work required.  With the abnormal temps (70's and 80's) we've been experiencing in the North, my bees have suffered a dearth for going on a month right now, going through 100 lbs of sugar a week w/  my 3 boomer colonies and a little NUC.

Nonetheless, beekeeping where winters can/do last longer than 7 months can be challenging, to say the least. 

I personally believe the closer one is to the equator would substantially provide a beek (and their bees) w/ that alleged 'easier' time of it .

thomas