Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
August 22, 2014, 11:57:35 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.  (Read 7769 times)
LoriMNnice
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 232


Location: minnesota


« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2011, 05:32:59 PM »

This thread is getting stupid PLEASE NOTE I am NOT calling ANYONE stupid. Just that this thread is going no where. Why don't you PM each other instead of having a battle on the forum?
Logged
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2011, 05:35:13 PM »

Hmmm.  Interesting.  Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?  
No it just that there is switch in behaviour around this temp in other circumstances, 18c may just be a good holding temp to jump to activity or brooding. Holding at 18c is just not thermally possible for  bees for any length of time  (weeks months) in a conventional wooden hive, it gets too cold or too hot too fast (6k). It takes 54 watts in wood at 0c ambient to hold 18C  but only 7.2W in a PU hive. Bees have an average winter heating budget of around 20W. With 20W  they could heat the entire PU hive to 34C at ambient of -16C.
  Thats what they could do, but what will they do? Thats what we are finding out.
I am wondering about the sizes of the bee population--it must be relivant to all the calculatios ??
 cool  RDY-B
Logged
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #122 on: October 17, 2011, 05:22:44 AM »

Finally some rational thought.  I agree w/ LoriMNnice.  This thread has become more rhetorical (and mean spirited) than theoretical.  I've learned very little from the last 4-5 pages. 

Why don't you guys just take it outside and settle it like High-schoolers grin

thomas
Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
Finski
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3928

Location: Finland


« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2011, 06:58:13 AM »

.
I just calculated that if in Britain 10% are fool or propel heads, they are more than Finnish people together included emmigrants. shocked
Logged

.
Language barrier NOT included
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #124 on: October 17, 2011, 07:20:23 AM »

(guess I should'a said middle-schoolers?)
Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
JackM
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 521


Location: Washougal, WA


« Reply #125 on: October 17, 2011, 08:15:14 AM »

Finally some rational thought.  I agree w/ LoriMNnice.  This thread has become more rhetorical (and mean spirited) than theoretical.  I've learned very little from the last 4-5 pages.  

Why don't you guys just take it outside and settle it like High-schoolers grin

thomas

Yes, as the thread starter, you sure took away the value to me of this thread with all the...whatever you want to call it....Thanks TBeek.
Logged

“I now have absolute proof that smoking even one marijuana cigarette is equal in brain damage to being on Bikini Island during an H-bomb blast” – Ronald Reagan
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #126 on: October 17, 2011, 01:31:21 PM »

  JACKM--are you having problems wintering your bees in WA without
extra insulation--i would like to hear more about WA-Is it really that
cold or is it just wet-remember the bees inside the tree--inless that tree is dead
 dormant it is absorbing(and utilizing)
extra moisture that is a byproduct of the bees--we have run the topic
of insulation past its value at this point--but what else is going on--?? RDY-B
Logged
derekm
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 500

Location: glow in the dark Hampshire UK


« Reply #127 on: October 17, 2011, 01:53:31 PM »

Hmmm.  Interesting.  Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?  
No it just that there is switch in behaviour around this temp in other circumstances, 18c may just be a good holding temp to jump to activity or brooding. Holding at 18c is just not thermally possible for  bees for any length of time  (weeks months) in a conventional wooden hive, it gets too cold or too hot too fast (6k). It takes 54 watts in wood at 0c ambient to hold 18C  but only 7.2W in a PU hive. Bees have an average winter heating budget of around 20W. With 20W  they could heat the entire PU hive to 34C at ambient of -16C.
  Thats what they could do, but what will they do? Thats what we are finding out.
I am wondering about the sizes of the bee population--it must be relivant to all the calculatios ??
 cool  RDY-B
Definitely it has a bearing on how much sugar/honey they eat and the heat released- and so doses the size of the hive box. If you have a bigger box with more bees but with the same number of bees per unit volume it has more heat, and more heat losses but they are outweighed by the heat gain. I took as my baseline the volume a british national hive and the often reported consumption of 12.5Kg of sugar over 150 days. This gave 17W, uprate it to a langstroth and you get 20W. 70lbs of honey per winter is more like 30w. The variation is considerable but it gives us an order of magnitude to understand the system. We can then understand that those 70lbs of honey in one type of hive cannot enable the bees to warm anything but the cluster but in another type can heat the entire hive to a significant degree.
  The thermodynamics are straightforward, how the bees behave to benefit or lose  is another matter.
Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
BlueBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4167

Location: Mid Michigan


« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2011, 01:56:59 PM »

When beeks start talking about wintering, you have to expect a heated discussion.  Happens every time.

Maybe I shouldn’t ask grin….but do trees absorb much water in the winter?  In the summer, water is transported up through the living tissues (just under the bark) and sugars are transported down.  Water is transported up to support leaf growth and for cooling the tree in the summer.
Logged
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2011, 02:11:51 PM »

When beeks start talking about wintering, you have to expect a heated discussion.  Happens every time.

Maybe I shouldn’t ask grin….but do trees absorb much water in the winter?  In the summer, water is transported up through the living tissues (just under the bark) and sugars are transported down.  Water is transported up to support leaf growth and for cooling the tree in the summer.
lots of trees in my area keep there leaves -like the california oak--but the tan oak loses them
  hard to put a discussion like this in a one size fits all--RDY-B
Logged
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #130 on: October 17, 2011, 02:23:45 PM »

*We can then understand that those 70lbs of honey in one type of hive cannot enable the bees to warm anything but the cluster but in another type can heat the entire hive to a significant degree.
  The thermodynamics are straightforward, how the bees behave to benefit or lose  is another matter.*

 seams to me what gets warmed is the air in the top of hive--RDY-B
Logged
derekm
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 500

Location: glow in the dark Hampshire UK


« Reply #131 on: October 17, 2011, 02:40:34 PM »

When beeks start talking about wintering, you have to expect a heated discussion.  Happens every time.

Maybe I shouldn’t ask grin….but do trees absorb much water in the winter?  In the summer, water is transported up through the living tissues (just under the bark) and sugars are transported down.  Water is transported up to support leaf growth and for cooling the tree in the summer.
The rotted wood inside a tree cavity seems very absorbent to me maybe the bees are with their heat and moisture increasing the hollowing process?
Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2011, 05:10:02 PM »

 yea may be--but we dont know for sure the wood is rotten--do we??
maybe they have covered it up with propolis like bees often do--the tree
is a thing of its own and not the best example for understanding--RDY-B
Logged
CapnChkn
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 453


Location: Huntsville AL


« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2011, 10:28:53 PM »

Yep!

Trees need water in winter.

Bees propolize every surface.
Logged

"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.
Finski
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3928

Location: Finland


« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2011, 02:03:54 AM »

yea may be--but we dont know for sure the wood is rotten--do we??


yes we do. How else a tree has a cavity if it is not rotten?
To old leave trees it is normal that the core is dead and rotten and the trunk has a living cylinder which grows as fast as inner material rottens.

There are hard rotten wood too but then no cavity. It depends what mushroom eates the trunk.

Bees carry out soft rotten wood fibres. So they tend to do in human made hives.

The tree trunk is wet all the time. It has not "normal dry wood" insulation values.

Logged

.
Language barrier NOT included
rdy-b
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


Location: clayton ca


« Reply #135 on: October 18, 2011, 02:28:46 AM »

  relay --if they clean out the pulp--the rot is gone-at any rate tree is a bad example
of what goes  on in colony of bees-moving backwards to the days of GUM LOG HIVES
 for infanet wisdome somehow over looked- grin RDY-B
Logged
JackM
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 521


Location: Washougal, WA


« Reply #136 on: October 18, 2011, 08:10:25 AM »

 JACKM--are you having problems wintering your bees in WA without
extra insulation--i would like to hear more about WA-Is it really that
cold or is it just wet-remember the bees inside the tree--inless that tree is dead
 dormant it is absorbing(and utilizing)
extra moisture that is a byproduct of the bees--we have run the topic
of insulation past its value at this point--but what else is going on--?? RDY-B


Don't have bees yet, trying to learn.  Very wet climate winter lows might get down to upper 20's and sometimes a teens night if it is clear.  Sometimes some freezing rain, rarely snow.  Rain.  Feet of rain.
Logged

“I now have absolute proof that smoking even one marijuana cigarette is equal in brain damage to being on Bikini Island during an H-bomb blast” – Ronald Reagan
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2011, 08:17:18 AM »

We had our first bit of freezing rain just last night (do I hear a celebration?), betcha my bees are in cluster now and finally slowing down, after three weeks of wandering about without anything to forage besides the buckets of syrup I provided.


(some trees, like some people, can be both rotten and still alive Wink
thomas
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 01:32:48 PM by T Beek » Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
Finski
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3928

Location: Finland


« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2011, 02:08:18 PM »

(some trees, like some people, can be both rotten and still alive Wink
thomas

important is that twig is hard
Logged

.
Language barrier NOT included
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2011, 02:15:47 PM »

Now that's funny Finski, actually LOL!!

thomas
Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.4 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page July 24, 2014, 12:25:01 AM