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Author Topic: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.  (Read 10094 times)

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #100 on: October 15, 2011, 04:58:57 PM »
*0.4 watts per degree C. A standard hive is 6K thats a factor of 15 different.*

 soo has this had any impact on the timing of the colonies evicting of the drones-
 this might be a indicator of which response impulse is triggering the colonies wintering mode
whether in is internal or external of the colonies living  environment ???RDY-B

Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #101 on: October 15, 2011, 05:00:48 PM »
*0.4 watts per degree C. A standard hive is 6K thats a factor of 15 different.*

 soo has this had any impact on the timing of the colonies evicting of the drones-
 this might be a indicator of which response impulse is triggering the colonies wintering mode
whether in is internal or external of the colonies living  environment ???RDY-B

Still have drones in the PU hive checking again tommorow
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 05:16:51 PM by derekm »
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #102 on: October 15, 2011, 05:09:18 PM »

Do you think the bees are carefully regulating temperature to hold the floor at 18?  

just read some research on the temperature of swarms... apparently they hold their outside temp at .... 17C or just above...
J. exp. Biol. (1981), 9*. 25-55 25 THE MECHANISMS AND ENERGETICS OF HONEYBEE SWARM TEMPERATURE REGULATION BY BERND HEINRICH

So Bees have a documented behavoir of holding peripheral areas at this particular temperature... Finski said if you electrical  heat above 17C it can induce fanning.. curiouser and curiouser
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #103 on: October 15, 2011, 05:22:00 PM »
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I have read too about the swarm temperatures.

When the swarm is going to continue its journey, it rises its temperature to 35C which is the rapid fly temperature of muscles. It has been measured with color temperature method. The rise of heat happens quickly in 15 minutes.

That is why old farts use to spray water onto swarm.

The muscle heat of the queen, which landed onto swarm, was 42C.
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Offline FRAMEshift

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2011, 07:34:19 PM »

So Bees have a documented behavoir of holding peripheral areas at this particular temperature... Finski said if you electrical  heat above 17C it can induce fanning.. curiouser and curiouser
Hmmm.  Interesting.  Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?  If so, Finski's observation could explain it.  If the temp around the cluster gets above 17 the bees begin to fan and that pushes heat out of the hive until it's back to 17.  The cluster might not be regulating the floor temperature but rather the exterior of the cluster.  But it amounts to the same thing.
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2011, 07:48:45 PM »

Hmmm.  Interesting.  Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?  If so, Finski's observation could explain it.  .

of course not. Winter cluster things are known well. 17C is nothing winter cluster temp.
And it is not swarming temp either.

Look 353.full.pdf
the surface layer is about 12C and the core 30C.
Flying muscles and abdomen has clearly dirrerent temperatus.

.actually the cluster is as slices between combs.

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« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 08:07:30 PM by Finski »
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Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2011, 08:16:02 PM »
Hmmm.  Interesting.  Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?  
No it just that there is switch in behaviour around this temp in other circumstances, 18c may just be a good holding temp to jump to activity or brooding. Holding at 18c is just not thermally possible for  bees for any length of time  (weeks months) in a conventional wooden hive, it gets too cold or too hot too fast (6k). It takes 54 watts in wood at 0c ambient to hold 18C  but only 7.2W in a PU hive. Bees have an average winter heating budget of around 20W. With 20W  they could heat the entire PU hive to 34C at ambient of -16C.
  Thats what they could do, but what will they do? Thats what we are finding out.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 08:29:13 PM by derekm »
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Tommyt

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2011, 08:29:02 PM »
 :?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 10:56:45 AM by Tommyt »
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Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #108 on: October 16, 2011, 12:48:15 PM »
:?

same here  or worse  :? :? :? :?

No sence in those calculations.

"Bees have average heating budget"   - I have never met.... Oh boy..... What is average hive or average food store....average beekeeper.  Comment: But not suits here.....

This discussion is on average out of normal. Nonsence budget ? Any left?
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Offline windfall

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #109 on: October 16, 2011, 02:39:28 PM »
Since this thread seems to be working towards theoretical math I have an additional question/complication:

Does anyone know the heat capacity of honey? How much energy does it take to raise a gram of honey 1 degree?
I assume the bees must heat the honey to consume it as the cluster moves through their stores...right? What temp do they need for that?

A side benifit of insulation (in the far north) may be that the bees don't have to take the honey from -10F or possibly colder but rather something substantially warmer? I understand they do this in small steps, but the overall energy consumption would still be the same.

Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #110 on: October 16, 2011, 04:02:13 PM »
:?

same here  or worse  :? :? :? :?

No sence in those calculations.

"Bees have average heating budget"   - I have never met.... Oh boy..... What is average hive or average food store....average beekeeper.  Comment: But not suits here.....

This discussion is on average out of normal. Nonsence budget ? Any left?
Any scientific discussion has to start with some figures, sorry I dont have the Standard deviation to quote per month. 12Kg of stores consumed over 150 days  gives around 20W.... if its 12kg +/- 4kg that means 20w +/- 5W.  if its 12Kg -4 + 12  then its 20W  -5W +20w. But I dont have the weight variation per month, perhaps you have the figures?...  The 12kg is a figure which I've taken as realistic consumption from some scientific papers... do you wish me to cite them ?
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2011, 04:08:20 PM »
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The winter cluster is a sandwhich. It has layers of bees and food combs.
The temperature of food is same as bees.

Why we should know those things what you are asking. My hives are under snow and I do not touch the hive for 6 months. They take care themselves as long as there exist  food.
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Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2011, 04:25:26 PM »
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The winter cluster is a sandwhich. It has layers of bees and food combs.
The temperature of food is same as bees.

Why we should know those things what you are asking. My hives are under snow and I do not touch the hive for 6 months. They take care themselves as long as there exist  food.

Finski ,
Why should you know anything that comes from  anywhere apart from Mr Finski?

if you think its irrelavent to you, show your disdain by refraining to comment.



your comments indicate that you have no wish to listen to information that does not coincide exactly with your pattern of beekeeping.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2011, 04:32:04 PM »
Honey has energy content of 1272kJ per 100 grams (per Wikipedia)

12kg x 1272kJ/100g = 152640kJ total energy released when 12kg of honey is consumed.

1 watt = 1joule/sec

150 days = 12960000 seconds

12kg honey consumed over 150 days generates on average 152640000J/12960000s = 11.7 watts

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2011, 04:35:02 PM »
A side benifit of insulation (in the far north) may be that the bees don't have to take the honey from -10F or possibly colder but rather something substantially warmer?
Good point Windfall!

In other words, do you like your steak frozen or medium rare :-D

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2011, 04:55:19 PM »
Honey has energy content of 1272kJ per 100 grams (per Wikipedia)

12kg x 1272kJ/100g = 152640kJ total energy released when 12kg of honey is consumed.

1 watt = 1joule/sec

150 days = 12960000 seconds

12kg honey consumed over 150 days generates on average 152640000J/12960000s = 11.7 watts
HARD DATA   :lol: --now we need to know how many bees did the consuming to produce 11.7 watts??? RDY-B

Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2011, 05:03:14 PM »
Honey has energy content of 1272kJ per 100 grams (per Wikipedia)

12kg x 1272kJ/100g = 152640kJ total energy released when 12kg of honey is consumed.

1 watt = 1joule/sec

150 days = 12960000 seconds

12kg honey consumed over 150 days generates on average 152640000J/12960000s = 11.7 watts
I was using 12.5KG sucrose It comes to 17W  which is "around 20w". 
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2011, 05:20:31 PM »
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Finski ,
Why should you know anything that comes from  anywhere apart from Mr Finski?

if you think its irrelavent to you, show your disdain by refraining to comment.

your comments indicate that you have no wish to listen to information that does not coincide exactly with your pattern of beekeeping.

hah hah Mr 2 hive owner.

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Offline derekm

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #118 on: October 16, 2011, 05:33:05 PM »
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Finski ,
Why should you know anything that comes from  anywhere apart from Mr Finski?

if you think its irrelavent to you, show your disdain by refraining to comment.

your comments indicate that you have no wish to listen to information that does not coincide exactly with your pattern of beekeeping.

hah hah Mr 2 hive owner.

.
you are quite right it takes a lot of hives and years of practice to get stuck in a rut so that you can ignore high school level physics. why not try a reasoned argument rather than "im finnish and have been doing this for years", because I can counter that with "i've have new ideas and Im willing to to work things out and experiment, and I'm British and we created most of modern science. Dont try to out chauvinist us"
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 05:48:20 PM by derekm »
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Insulation, venting, real bee life, exits.
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2011, 06:22:38 PM »

I have studied 5 year biology in university.
The British physics.... I have learner from British forum, how to make syrup with old loundry machine. Nothing else.

I do not kow where you need you need your calculations. 
what was the problem? I  do not know.
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