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Author Topic: How oxalic acid syrup spreads on bees  (Read 4880 times)
Finski
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« on: October 08, 2011, 11:59:32 AM »

.
Just now I saw how oxalic acid drippled syrup spreads on on bees.
After drippling about half a hour I opened the hive.

Bees had tiny syrup droplets on their wings, and ofcourse every where. They tried to get rid off sticky glue like stuff and they rub it more to their body. They made same movements like they do when cleaning pollen from their body. With their legs they rub acid syrup on the abdomen where the mites mostly are.

Actually they actively creased themselves with acid syrup. That is why the sugar percent is important in efficacy.

Colony had no brood. So the medication was good to do now.

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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2011, 12:07:31 PM »

Im planning on using it for the first time later this month, may have to wait til later on in November. It seems as all my hive has made a huge commitment to rearing brood right now with this great Goldenrod flow we are in. Ive read plenty on its use, just a little apprehensive still.
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2011, 12:55:47 PM »

.
Recipe

mix 100g sugar + 100 g water + 7,5 g oxalic acid.

This enough for 3 two box hives or 5 one box hives.

Cost is almost nothing.

.
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BlueBee
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2011, 01:09:46 PM »

Thanks Finski. 

I’m still wondering the mechanism by which dribbling gets syrup on the bees at the bottom of the cluster?  When I make a dribble mess in the kitchen, the dribbles don’t flow evenly down the side of a pan.  They break up into strings of runs….I don't get full coverage, unless I make a real mess.

Finski, could you also put your mixture in a spray bottle and spray each frame of bees?   
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Finski
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2011, 01:38:28 PM »

.
Spraying can be done with 3% water  acid solution. No sugar.
That is old method.  Some do that laborous job even if trickling takes 20 seconds.

There are problems  to use trickling:

- against law. You will be soon in prison
- you are not able to bye a digital balance and weigh needed stuffs.
-  and 20 other reasons....
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 02:24:29 PM »


There are problems  to use trickling:

- against law. You will be soon in prison
- you are not able to bye a digital balance and weigh needed stuffs.
-  and 20 other reasons....
0

 grin
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 08:59:12 PM »

As far as I know, nobody even knows for sure how oxalic acid kills the mites.  There are only theories at present, but it certainly works well.  Randy Oliver has some great info on the subject.

I am hoping late November right before deer season (gun) will work well for the trickle/drip at same time as hive get wrapped for winter.  I was going to use maqs until I read all the horror stories about queen loss.  OA apparently has little or no effect on queens.
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Finski
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2011, 12:28:51 AM »

OA apparently has little or no effect on queens.

that is important note.

Some have invented from their own head that the queen stands only once in its life time OA handling, but several years old queens are still in hives.

Now its proved that beehives stand more than one trickling.
Our varroa expert has given in spring again trickling and it has dropped the varroa level in hives.
I have given  in two last year spring trickling. This year it helped, in last year not.

In  spring I wondered how awfully much I had still mites in hives.
But actually those dead mites had died in winter treatment, they had falled into cells and then bees cleaned along the spring those  mites.
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2011, 04:23:47 AM »

The theory that I remember that makes sense to me on efficacy to mites and not queens is this.  The bees eat the OA syrup.  The mites feed off of the bees blood and die from the high amount of oa present.  The worker bees apparently are affected to a small degree but the queen is not eating the oa syrup but instead is feed royal jelly (all her life) produced by glands in worker bees heads.  My guess is the queen will only ingest harmless amounts of oa (oa is naturally found in honey).  Therefore OA trickling may be harmless to the queen. 

Literature suggests that treating nucleus colonies (same for packages) for mites made with queen cells in summer is also excellent option when done in the broodless or near broodless window before the new queens offspring is of age for the mites to begin infesting her brood.  And apparently the queens life, laying potential, ect. are unaffected by oa trickling.

I believe all the literature I speak of is available at Randy Olivers website.

I think a perfectly sound organic treatment is being wasted, simply because it is not approved in the USA and people are scared to death to open a colony in winter.  It cost something like two cents per treatment, per colony.
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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

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Finski
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2011, 06:44:02 AM »

The theory that I remember that makes sense to me on efficacy to mites and not queens is this.  The bees eat the OA syrup.  The mites feed off of the bees blood and die from the high amount of oa present. 

-  it does not go that way. The influence is external. There is no antivarroa stuff which affect via blood.






 Therefore OA trickling may be harmless to the queen. 

- it has bee carefully researched. IT IS NOT



I believe all the literature I speak of is available at Randy Olivers website.

-  as far as I know, Randy is not a varroa expert. He is just writing.

If you want real expert put in goodle "nanetti varroa " . He is an Italian beekeeping professor who has developed the trickling.

I think a perfectly sound organic treatment is being wasted, simply because it is not approved in the USA and people are scared to death to open a colony in winter.  It cost something like two cents per treatment, per colony.

- when I made it first time, I was really afraid what happens to my hives.
- the treatment has bee advertised so that it is like atom bomb. Mask, rubber gloves, keep breathing .....


Many beekeepers are afraid to open the cover because they are afraid of stings.
So they ask from forum instead that they look inside the hive.

."I have not looked my hive for two months. What to do now".
- the answer: "let them be in peace"
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2011, 10:14:53 AM »

Have you even taken a look and Randy Olivers Website?  The data I refer too is not his theory but the theory of scientists.  Who is right or wrong really does not matter to me, what matters is it kills mites, and not bees, and most important, is not hell on queens.

I will google your expert, "nanetti varroa"!  What a last name!

It would be easier if you would point me to a direct link to the data that proves that the oxalic acid efficasy on mites is an external one!  I have only read theory, and studies that come up with guesses.  Pudding please!
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Thomas Jefferson
Finski
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2011, 12:47:14 PM »

.
I write with mobile Nokia C6. I cannot link.

I have linked couple of times all essential researches to Beemaster.

European Union Varroa Group made about 10 years work to select best varroa treatment methods. It was about 1998-2008. Methods were developed better and made easy to use.
Harms and risks have studied several years.

Those varroa work results have been verified in many other countries.

In UK Beekeeping Society started to inform about results as soon as they were ready, but a wide group of beekeepers start to fight against Oxalic Acid claiming what ever. A wider gang started to poem their own opinion about recipes.

Now after 5 years depate nonsence talking has calmed down in UK FORUM.

But sad to see that sugar dusting is still recommended on Beemaster and UK forums even if it has proved to be unefficient.

In Canada "a waggle dance around varroa" has proved to be sad and expencive. It was not CCD WHICH KILLED HIVES in Canada. It was debate about varroa treatment stuffs. In that time European results were well published.

What I say, in America unefficient methods are widely used among hobby beekeepers. In their hives dead rate in winter is huge compared to professionals. Look the last Maarec report.
The worst is an advice: do nothing, let evolution work!

Now in Uk winter treatment with OA is widely accepted.

thymol is widely used now via commercial products.

The worst situation is in southern places where hives do not keep brood brake.
What I understand, South Africa and New Zealand are bad varroa places because of brooding, but too for their escaped colonies which keep on high varroa level in nature.


All results are in Internet, but sorry to say that links do not work very long time because sites of reports have changed.
.



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bee-nuts
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2011, 08:15:00 PM »

"What I say, in America unefficient methods are widely used among hobby beekeepers. In their hives dead rate in winter is huge compared to professionals. Look the last Maarec report.
The worst is an advice: do nothing, let evolution work!"

I agree with you, many here ignore sound science, and instead want to wave a magic wand of powder sugar, screened bottom boards, etc., and ignore all the sound studies and trials that prove them to have almost no real impact on the pests.  Laziness is also a problem, if you dont look for a problems, you wont find them.

That said, when you find yourself in front of a PC, I would appreciate links to sound studies or trials that you say makes the method of O.A. trickling and its route of efficacy to varroa obvious and so ends the senseless debate!  I really dont have time to waste searching for a needle in a hay stack just because someone says is there.  
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2011, 09:02:46 PM »


What I say, in America unefficient methods are widely used among hobby beekeepers.

Quote
I write with mobile Nokia C6. I cannot link.

And that inefficient phone is manufactured in.... wait for it...... grin


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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2011, 09:09:40 PM »

I agree with you, many here ignore sound science, and instead want to wave a magic wand of powder sugar, screened bottom boards, etc.,
Quote

 I would appreciate links to sound studies or trials that you say makes the method of O.A. trickling....

I would appreciate links to sound studies or trials that you say show that powdered sugar and screened bottom boards have no real impact on mites.
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2011, 06:38:24 AM »

Heres one link after googling what Finski suggested:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,34953.0.html
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2011, 07:11:08 AM »

Heres one link after googling what Finski suggested:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,34953.0.html


Note that OA is only effective when used during a broodless period.  I think the same is true of powdered sugar/SBB, but that fact is often ignored.
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2011, 07:32:08 AM »


But sad to see that sugar dusting is still recommended on Beemaster and UK forums even if it has proved to be unefficient.

I'm listening to you Finski.  Please, when you get to your computer, could you post a link to a study that shows that powdered sugar used with screened bottom boards in a broodless period does not work.

If there is a solid bottom board, the mites that are removed by sugar just climb back on the bees.  If there is lots of capped brood, the sugar never gets to the mites inside the cells (the same problem that exists with oxalic acid).  
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2011, 01:03:21 PM »

.
prof Antonio Nanetti has made a  varroa book to ebooks.
Look from google "nanetti varroa estimo pdf  2011".

It has been published in Spring 2011

It is a free download.

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bee-nuts
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2011, 02:10:03 PM »

"Note that OA is only effective when used during a broodless period.  I think the same is true of powdered sugar/SBB, but that fact is often ignored"

LOL.  What am I goint to do, sugar dust my colonies at 10 below zero in January, lol.  Even if you knocked  of 50 percent of the mites you would be doing little which I doubt you would get.

We need 85% + efficasy to control mites.  The double in population in one month.  Sugar dusting is a joke.  You would need to do it every two weeks to have any hope.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting-sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-1/

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powdered-sugar-dusting-sweet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-2/
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The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the traits which favor that theory

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