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Author Topic: Protest?  (Read 3567 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2011, 10:54:31 AM »

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All societies redistribute wealth.  If they didn't, all the money would end up in the hands of a few rich families and corporations.


that is technical true, but not in the way the redistribution is commonly understood.  in this case we are using the common understanding which is:  taking from those who have a giving to those who have less in the name of "fairness".
  we are not talking about people earning money by working for those who have more.

Quote
The most successful societies are the ones that redistribute the most while still leaving the engine of free enterprise intact.  Except for a couple of oil states where wealth is based on the temporary extraction of raw materials, the highest quality of life is in countries that have high taxes and  reinvest the money in building the structure of the country.
 

that depends on how you evaluate success.  they exist and for the most part are comfortable in that existence.  we don't really look to those countries for great innovations, a place for the oppressed to be successful if they work hard, etc.  

they are also very small populations and homogeneous.  what they have decided to do works for them, but no greatness is expected of them.

look at countries that more closely resemble the US in population mix and are larger. england, france, germany.  the are further along in their social welfare society.  how's that working for them?  not to well.  when times get tough, the takers are not interested in "sharing the pain".  they just want their stuff.  pols keep shoveling the stuff so that they can stay in power and the countries get weaker and weaker.  the "rich" are taxed more and more by local, county, and state.  again....not greatness out of these countries...just survival, they hope.

Quote
At the time that America was building itself.... creating the infrastructure and educational system that made wealth possible.... I'm talking the 1950s-1970s ....    the top marginal tax rate was between 50 and 85 percent.


totally different tax code at the time...but that's another subject...it was also the beginning of the wealthy scrambling to shelter wealth, massive expansion of government, and the beginning of our social welfare state.  it was the time that states began to have less revenue because so much was going to the feds, and state welfare programs.  most of your roads, and your schools, are the responsibility of the state, not the fed.  if you state chooses to have ever expanding welfare programs and depend on the feds to make up the difference, then yes, your infrastructure is going to suffer.  

Kennedy realized it was unsustainable:  
 
"In short, it is a paradoxical truth that ... the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now. The experience of a number of European countries and Japan have borne this out. This country's own experience with tax reduction in 1954 has borne this out. And the reason is that only full employment can balance the budget, and tax reduction can pave the way to that employment. The purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus."
– John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, news conference

"Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government."
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 17, 1963, annual budget message to the Congress, fiscal year 1964

what happened?  revenue increased.  same with the tax cuts of the 20's and the Reagan tax cuts.   the best thing he did was cut some of the loop-holes that let to non-payment of taxes.  he also broadened the tax base.  there is no reason to have 47% of the population paying no federal income taxes and in some cases getting back more than they would have paid.

redistribution of wealth by the government is theft.  it is taking what one person has earned and giving it to another.  we all agree that there are certain things that we need to fund by way of taxes.  among them is not AC, Xboxes, pizza, and cell phones.  




 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2011, 10:58:22 AM »

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it's especially "interesting" to be at a market where i stand for 9 hours selling honey and have people (who are not working...and who are doing something other than trying to make a living) protest.

the problem is not with these protesters.  protests happen all the time and they are fine.  the problem with this protest is that it is being co-opted by some very powerful and anti capitalist/American groups.  if these groups are successful in organizing something bigger and...by the nature of these groups, more violent, we could be seeing some trouble along the lines of the 60's riots.

watch for the 10th of October.  that's supposed to be THE  day....so i have been told  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2011, 09:36:08 AM »

Just ignore them.  The media is hyping it, the Dumbocrats are starting to jump on the wagon and say we are with you....but they are part of the problem.....and the protesters are not smart enough to figure out they are being used.  The Pied Piper led them  

I really have a problem with folks wanting the rich to hand their money over to them because they have had hard luck, or aren't rich themselves.  darn those folks earned it.  I am one of the poor BTW.  I am sick of things being given to folks because they are poor or an immigrant or whatever.

Everything is upside down, and until it gets set back on it's feet, nothing will get better.
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2011, 11:41:45 AM »

the protesters themselves are not a problem.  the groups that are starting to come in and speak, organize, etc., are.  adbusters, who have been behind some of the most violent protests at G20, etc. are behind this, some given them credit for starting it.  speakers have been openly Marxist.  some, like the on in LA yesterday warned the protesters that peaceful protest would accomplish nothing.  violence would be the only way.

the reason the media is watching has nothing to do with the message.  the message is pretty garbled.  they are watching because the know the groups involved and are waiting for the violence.....like going to nascar and waiting for the wreck  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2011, 01:48:10 PM »

On the bright side, there are a lot of REALLY FUNNY videos coming from these protests.  grin

Here is one of the better ones....
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Rick
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2011, 08:17:36 PM »

I love it.
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luvin honey
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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2011, 05:33:19 PM »

I think this has nothing to do with Obama. He isn't fighting Wall Street, so where's the link? I think people are fed up and find it amusing that when Tea Partiers demonstrate, it's seen as a grassroots movement. When these people do, it's picked apart.
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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2011, 05:42:43 PM »

 applause applause applause
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2011, 06:03:18 PM »

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I think this has nothing to do with Obama. He isn't fighting Wall Street, so where's the link? I think people are fed up and find it amusing that when Tea Partiers demonstrate, it's seen as a grassroots movement. When these people do, it's picked apart.


because no one picked the tea party apart.  we know how fair that coverage was.  racists, terrorists, enemy of the people, dangerous....shall i go on??

it seems to me that if you have a bunch of people making demands, it's "fair" to try to figure out who they are, who they are listening to, and what they want.  so far, most of that is pretty murky...except the part about who they are listening to.  that is becoming clear.

i don't care about protests.  we have those all the time about one thing or another.  i don't even care that they are camped in public places doing drugs and interfering with travel and commerce.  winter will take care of that. however, i am concerned that you have a lot of largely well meaning people with some legitimate gripes, little understanding of the cause of their distress, and ripe for the picking of some very bad actors.
when you have idealistic young people embracing "revolution", and you have real revolutionaries amongst them, you have a potential powder keg wasting for a match.  those bad actors are perfectly willing to strike the match to further their own cause. 
these are the same people fanning the flames in other, less peaceful, protests around the world. 

if that match is struck, those idealistic and energetic kids are going to be fodder in one nasty blast.  revolution might be accomplished, but the problems they want solved, will not be solved.

and then there are the - pay my student loans, give me a living wage and economic justice, nuts.  that's just Marxist crap.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 08:13:59 PM »

I know next to nothing about the protesters on Wall Street, so I can't comment on that. However, I would say that it is pretty easy to get a nation of struggling citizens to get behind a protest of Wall Street behavior that has gutted our 401Ks and any sort of stock investments, while the people working WS continue to earn exorbitant salaries and bonuses.

So, perhaps some of the protesters are blowhards. But they have a pretty good argument regardless.

In WI, we saw many months of peaceful protest. A police officer friend of mine recently told me some of them were "professional protesters," who actually travel the country to any protest. The majority, though, were genuine people with genuine concerns.

I hope it stays calm on WS. I would protect free speech, even if it allows idiots to speak their mind. It's one thing I love about this country.
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The pedigree of honey
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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2011, 08:25:12 PM »

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However, I would say that it is pretty easy to get a nation of struggling citizens to get behind a protest of Wall Street behavior that has gutted our 401Ks and any sort of stock investments, while the people working WS continue to earn exorbitant salaries and bonuses.


wall street is about investments.  they make money when you make money.  if stocks are down, it's bad for business also.  as for bonuses and salaries, that's between company shareholders and the business.  they are not taking money out of your pocket to put in someone else's...unlike the government.

the protests against wall street are pretty nuts.  there are some really bad actors, like Soros, but those are not the ones being protested.  i am in favor of throwing someone in jail for breaking the law, but not for being paid a good...or even exorbitant salary.  the protests against the banks are nuts too.  the banks paid back the money with interest.  why are they not protesting GE, GM, etc.  those companies got bailouts and did not pay all back, or like GE...took their jobs out of the country.

that is my point about these protests.  they are so very uninformed....unless class warfare is the point.  in that case, they are doing a good job...and isn't that the point of a Marxist revolution?

most of us are in favor of free speech.  in fact, i never hear anyone wanting to restrict it except the left.  the most dangerous thing to the "progressive" (socialist) movement is an informed public.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
luvin honey
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2011, 08:30:26 PM »

wall street is about investments.  they make money when you make money.  if stocks are down, it's bad for business also.  as for bonuses and salaries, that's between company shareholders and the business.  they are not taking money out of your pocket to put in someone else's...unlike the government.

the protests against wall street are pretty nuts.  there are some really bad actors, like Soros, but those are not the ones being protested.  i am in favor of throwing someone in jail for breaking the law, but not for being paid a good...or even exorbitant salary.  the protests against the banks are nuts too.  the banks paid back the money with interest.  why are they not protesting GE, GM, etc.  those companies got bailouts and did not pay all back, or like GE...took their jobs out of the country.

that is my point about these protests.  they are so very uninformed....unless class warfare is the point.  in that case, they are doing a good job...and isn't that the point of a Marxist revolution?

most of us are in favor of free speech.  in fact, i never hear anyone wanting to restrict it except the left.  the most dangerous thing to the "progressive" (socialist) movement is an informed public.
First of all, they ARE taking my money to pay out huge bonuses. Where exactly does it come from, if not from the shareholders. And are you saying Wall Street wasn't bailed out by the government? Would you at least admit that the banking system was? So, my stocks suck, and I'm paying tax dollars to bail out a system that has let me down and then paid itself bonuses. I have a huge problem with that.

I find it very amusing how quickly socialism and communism are mentioned in these situations. Is that supposed to terrify people into not talking about the enormous gap between the extremely rich and the rest of us? We're not in the McCarthy era any more, I hope. We shuld be able to talk about these social facts without "Marxism" and "socialism" being thrown around.

I'd love one example of when "the left" wanted to restrict speech.
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The pedigree of honey
Does not concern the bee;
A clover, any time, to him
Is aristocracy.
---Emily Dickinson
kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2011, 09:28:25 PM »

Here's part of Rockefeller's statement: "There's a little bug inside of me which wants to get the FCC to say to FOX and to MSNBC: 'Out. Off. End. Goodbye.' It would be a big favor to political discourse; our ability to do our work here in Congress, and to the American people, to be able to talk with each other and have some faith in their government and more importantly, in their future."  

Quote:
AL SHARPTON: When you keep having all of these racial tones, that is supported by federally-regulated radio--remember, these stations that he is on go to the federal government to get consolidation, to get waivers--the government has a right to protect free speech but they also have an obligation to hold standards where American people are not subjected to this. . .

hey sharpton...the government has the OBLIGATION to protect free speech, not the right (my addition smiley

and this
http://news.antiwar.com/2011/01/11/citing-shooting-congressmen-eye-new-curbs-on-political-speech/
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/10/congressman-reportedly-to-move-to-criminalize-threatening-speech-against-members-of-congress/

then there is the so called Fairness Doctrine and the proposed hate crimes act that also limited speech.  

your stocks suck because the stock market is volatile.  on any given day, they may either suck or not.  if you are investing with a company that is not doing a good job for you, then why are you investing with them?  take a walk.  enough people do that, the company doesn't make money. however, if the company is making money overall and they pay their people well, what if that to you.  your stock profit is not connected to the salary they are earning.  it may be connected to the job they are doing.

the banking system was bailed out.  i was not in favor of that but the banks paid back, with interest, what they were given.  some of them were forced to take the money when they didn't want or need it.  wellsfargo was one.

wall street was not bailed out in the way that you mean.  some companies, like GE and GM were.  they did not pay back what they got.  the QE that the government is doing is designed, in part, to prop up stocks.  i am not in favor of that.  it is making our money worth less, and so your stocks may seem ok, but in fact are worth less.  

Quote
I find it very amusing how quickly socialism and communism are mentioned in these situations. Is that supposed to terrify people into not talking about the enormous gap between the extremely rich and the rest of us? We're not in the McCarthy era any more, I hope. We shuld be able to talk about these social facts without "Marxism" and "socialism" being thrown around.


the reason it comes up is because that's what it is.  the left loves to demonize mccarthy, but the record tells us that he was largely  right.  that aside, one persons wealth has no bearing on your wealth.  they are not taking a dollar out of your pocket and putting it in theirs.  only the government does that.  the wealth of your neighbor has no impact on your ability to become wealth, or not.
this is the class warfare argument of the left...the left, to one degree or another, are marxist.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2011, 09:49:25 PM »

thought you might like some more reading material  Wink

http://www.cpusa.org/

http://socialistparty-usa.org/occupywallstreet.html

http://anarchistnews.org/
look on the right of this page for the OWS stuff.  interesting reading all along.

if you want more, i can get it for you.

oh...one more. this one is to good to pass up.

http://www.dsausa.org/pdf/widemsoc.pdf

quote from the site.

Q Aren't you a party that's in competition with the
Democratic Party for votes and support?

No, we are not a separate party. Like our friends and allies in the feminist, labor, civil rights, religious,
and community organizing movements, many of us have been active in the Democratic Party. We work with
those movements to strengthen the party’s left wing, represented by the Congressional Progressive Caucus.
The process and structure of American elections seriously hurts third party efforts. Winner-take-all
elections instead of proportional representation, rigorous party qualification requirements that vary from state
to state, a presidential instead of a parliamentary system, and the two-party monopoly on political power have
doomed third party efforts. We hope that at some point in the future, in coalition with our allies, an alternative
national party will be viable. For now, we will continue to support progressives who have a real chance at
winning elections, which usually means left-wing Democrats.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2011, 08:45:18 AM »

I've been hearing a lot about getting free healthcare, free college, more welfare, when there is more a right to take from the people who have in order to give to all the people who don't have....

....that sounds a lot like socialism.
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Rick
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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2011, 09:31:11 AM »

So, my stocks suck...

errrr...you mean the stocks that you purchased?  The ones you chose...or the ones that the manager of your pension fund or mutual fund spent your money on?  The manager that wanted you to trust them to make you money?  The manager that would be taking credit for the huge ROI if they had been successful?  You were invested in the stock market either directly or indirectly in order to make money.  Your money could have been in an FDIC insured account instead...but you wouldn't do that, because it won't make you money. 

Would you invest your money in a business where the employes are vastly overpaid?  If you have stocks that lost money while those running the company were paid handsomely, then you _did_.

I'm not unsympathetic...the system sucks and is broken in many places...but there are other options to the stock market (investing in a lean local business, for instance), and it seems absurd to complain about losing money while you were gambling trying to make money...that the way the business works.

deknow
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luvin honey
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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2011, 10:24:40 AM »

I'm not complaining, deknow. I feel lucky to have any extra to invest at all. Course, this is for retirement, so it hurts. I'm saying if the market tanks so badly that people are losing their retirement (and I'm lucky enough to have about 30 more earning years), and yet the CEOs of those companies still are making money hand over fist, there's a problem.

I have a vegetable CSA business. People "invest" in it by paying me before the season starts. If, for example, I have a lousy cabbage crop, I give ALL the cabbages to my investors. I don't hold back a pile for myself and tell them it's too bad there weren't enough left for them. I expect the same from others.

As for the risks of investing, I don't put all my eggs in one basket. My financial situation is private, but I reinvest in my own tiny business, we are going to be buying the family farm, and we put away for rainy days. CDs stink right now, and a savings account is only slightly better than under the mattress. We invest for the very long term and don't freak when the stock market acts like a roller coaster. We do expect integrity, though.
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The pedigree of honey
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A clover, any time, to him
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kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2011, 11:45:05 AM »

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We do expect integrity, though

you have a right to expect that.

i still don't get your point about the market.  if the market tanks, it is not the investment company that tanked it.  if the CEO is getting paid to much, it's the shareholders in that company that should be upset, not you. 

what should they do.  make up the loss for you?  that's not the way investing works.  if you are investing with a company that is charging you a big fee and then losing your money... or paying a huge bonus with your fees, it's your job to find a different company.  however, good investment firms are doing well because they have a wide spread of investors and the market has not been that bad.  it has it's ups and downs, but year over year, it has been pretty good or at least steady.

we have been investing for years.  some of our higher risk funds have lost money.  that happens in a recession because a lot of those high risk/start up companies don't make it.  our low risk investments have been at least steady.  the return is not as good, but the money is safer. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2011, 12:24:49 PM »

I think luvin honey's point is this.

If a company makes 40 million profit and has 20 million shares out, the CEO makes 10 million and the stock pays 1.50 dividend. it is wrong for the CEO to get a 45 million raise and the stock goes down when the dividend is stopped.

I think I agree.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2011, 12:34:33 PM »

i don't disagree, but it's a moral issue, not one that the government needs to fix...not that they ever fix things.

the best way to deal with companies like that is to not use them, and to make public what they do.  organize a boycott, do a wall of shame on your FB, etc.     

the government has no business determining wages or bonuses,  and the fact remains, it's the shareholders who are really losing.  if they are so stupid as to let this happen, they deserve what they get.  even if the CEO and others were being paid less, the people holding/buying the stocks through that company would not be getting more.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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