Republican Front Runner

[iddee]

"""When people cheer over an incredibly high number of executions in Texas and shout out "let him die" over a rhetorical question about someone without health insurance, I find it greatly disturbing that I share a county with people with these sentiments. """

I am one of those people.

I am also a veteran who uses VA medical care. I have on my medical records at VA,  ""Do not resuscitate."', along with ""Do not use any external life support at any time"". To go along with that, I have a living will.

I do not believe life should be kept after usefulness is gone, whether at birth, or at age 100, myself included.

I firmly believe no man or woman who was executed has ever killed again, so it is definitely a deterrent.   

[Poppi]

Iddee, I too am a disabled vet, Viet Nam, 1968.  I also have a living will with a DNR provision.  But it's not because I would consider myself useless...  but rather an unnecessary burden on my family.  The first statement you quoted has nothing to do with personal choice.  I think when those kinds of things are used in this way, they are easily taken out of context.  What was the before and after of that statement and the discussion or question that promted the statement?  When I take it at face value my response is I don't celebrate the death of anyone whether natural causes or lethal injection but I am for capital punishment and the death penalty.  I would also have to ask how you determine usefulness at birth?  I think I understand you to mean brain dead or only able to survive with the help of machines.  However, my wife's brother had polio as a child and if it wasn't for the iron lung he would not have survived and became a very successful business man.  At best this is all a very slippery slope but we can respect each other's opinions.

John

[iddee]

John, it was in response to "just let them die".

Useless at birth is when it is known that they will never speak, feed themselves, run, walk, or crawl. They will only lie and stare at what is above them. That, to me, is a useless life.

My brother-in-law has polio.He was on crutches from age 7 until age 57. He has been in a wheel chair since. He is 73 now. He has never earned a living. He has lived with me since 1974. He still lives with me today. There are things he can still do. His life is not useless.

 

[kathyp]

Useless at birth is when it is known that they will never speak, feed themselves, run, walk, or crawl.

should be up to the family and with proper council.

my brother has 4 children.  on the 1st, the ultrasound showed an anomaly that they geneticists shad associated with a genetic defect.  they were counseled to abort.  they said no.  the geneticist was so angry, that she wouldn't talk to them anymore.  the baby was fine.  send pregnancy, same story.  referred to the same geneticist...who remembered them and ask them if they would consider an abortion.  they said no.  she refused to talk to them again.

same thing with the 3rd and they didn't bother following up on the referral to the geneticist.  on the 4th, the anomaly was spotted, but the tech said not to worry.  seems in the intervening years they had determined that this was a common thing and only very rarely was there a problem with the child.  better technology had allowed them to see more often something that was common.

had they followed the advice of the geneticist, two of their very lovely and quite brilliant children would not have been born.

i think i wrote here long ago about why i have developed the views i now have on abortion, so i won't do it again.  suffice it to say that the farther medicine comes, the more i, and many, believe that we are taking a life with the procedure. 

[iddee]

Kathy, I wasn't speaking of abortion. I was speaking of a normal birth, but not a normal child. I have no opinion on abortion, as I can see pros on both sides, but I lean lightly toward your side.

""should be up to the family and with proper council.""

With the family's money, I agree.
With my tax money, I may or may not agree.

Just to stir the pot, does life begin with living egg and living sperm? Is birth control the same as abortion, just sooner?

Again, I have no opinion. I see both sides.

[kathyp]

i'll give you the short version of why i have come to the point of believing abortion is murder.  has nothing to do with religion.  i used to buy the "viability" argument.

in 1969, my brother was born at 36 weeks and almost died.  his lungs were not developed.  by the time i went to work in obstetrics, 36 weeks was not such a big deal.  below that was still iffy.  by the time in left medicine in '96  30 weeks was not a death sentence.  the accepted age of viability is now 24 weeks.   not only do these premature babies survive, but with less chance of disability than an older premature baby once had.

we have recent records of babies born at 21 and 22 weeks and have survived.

if we are moving the age of viability back as technology advances, have we murdered children for all these years because what's murder now, was ok a few years ago?   do we determine the right and wrong of a thing according to advancement in science?  what happens when we have an artificial womb?  what about those 2nd trimester abortions done on babies that under other circumstances might have survived?

to be consistent, i'd have to say that i have no problem with birth control.  it should be used early and often by lots of people who don't!  however, i do have a problem with "birth control" that ends a pregnancy already started. 

[iddee]

So what you are saying, I think, is a living egg and a living sperm left separated to die, is not murder, but let them combine, then let them die, it's murder. Is that correct?

Again, I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing, just asking.

[kathyp]

but let them combine, then let them die, it's murder

let them combine and then intentionally kill them?  i'd have to say yes if i am to keep a consistent position

i'll take it a step farther to really stir thing up.  if abortion is murder, then the circumstances of conception should make no difference. 

if and when we can have a clear answer on when life begins, i'll reconsider.  until then, i choose to err on the safe side.

[iddee]

Would "err on the safe side" not mean that life begins when the egg and sperm is formed?
If not, I would think invitro would be humans actually creating life.

[kathyp]

neither the egg nor the sperm alone have the material necessary for a complete life.  only when the two are joined, either in vivo or in vitro, can life be created.

[iddee]

OK. I think I better quit trolling and get back to ""Republican Front Runner"" Before John sends me to the gallows.
It's after 11 here. I'll be back tomorrow. G'nite.

[kathyp]

you are just trying to get me in trouble and you know i can do that all by myself!   

[Scadsobees]

Iddee...you are confusing "let them die" with "kill them".

On a different note...
There are people who are far worse than "useless".  Somebody who rapes, tortures two teenage girls in front of their parents, then also rapes and tortures the mother before burning them alive in a house and only the father barely escapes for help? 

After wiping away tears of horror, shame, and pity, it is time to turn to the grim matter of how to best dispose of the human garbage who perpetrated this crime.  "Cruel and unusual" should be applied in relationship to the crime, and sadly in our culture "cruel" is if we don't anesthetize the perpetrator properly before sending him to see his Maker.

The left thinks that abortion is fine...well why not a few years later to the ones who don't turn out??

Grrr....thanks mr. troll!!

Don't know much about most of the candidates, too much that we hear is soundbites and snippets from the opposite party.  For the most part it is who's not the worst, and any of them is still far better than what we got now.

[kathyp]

and sadly in our culture "cruel" is if we don't anesthetize the perpetrator properly

they're having a cow right now because TX is considering cutting lunches on weekend in the prisons.  prisoners can buy snacks if they wish, but to save money, no lunch will be served. 

and of course, it's "cruel and unusual" treatment to withhold lunch.

i think every single one of them should do the sheriff joe thing.  in the north, they can issue insulated skivvies.

[Poppi]

Iddee...  you are exempt from the gallows because of special circumstances...  experienced beekeeper!!!

LOL!!   Have a great day!!   John 

[BlueBee]

NEW POLL NUBERS ARE IN:  Romney leads by wide margins.

Interesting that none of our Republican bee keepers seem to like Romney? 

He has been, and still is, the front runner.  New CNN poll shows him leading the pack while all the ultra right wing candidates are dropping like lead balloons.  What gives?

Was Michael Moore correct last night on Piers Morgan when he said “no one’s going to remember the tea party”?

[kathyp]

can you define ultra right wing?  what do they, or the tea party, need to believe to be ULTRA?

[BlueBee]

Probably comes from an analogy from statistics and normal (bell curve) distributions.  The people whose beliefs are +/- 3 simga from the average Amercian beliefs (mean) are considered ultra.  You can have ultra right and ultra left. 

[kathyp]

i was thinking more of specific positions that you would think made a candidate/group ultra right....or for that matter, ultra left.

[BlueBee]

Well, an example of an ultra left wing position would be scraping a 235 year old document written by people living in a time with no electricity, no cars, no internet, with slaves and no civil rights, few women rights and replacing it with a system of REAL democracy.  Cut out this useless middle man system we have and give power directly to the people!  Is that ultra left wing enough for ya?

But what about Romney?  Are the bee keepers going to get behind him?