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Author Topic: are "fossil fuels" an agenda item....and a lie?  (Read 968 times)
kathyp
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« on: September 26, 2011, 09:35:26 PM »

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/energy-intelligence/2011/09/14/abiotic-oil-a-theory-worth-exploring

this is interesting.  guess i'm late to the party on this because the theory and proof(?) have been around for awhile.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
schawee
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 11:23:11 PM »

i guess big oil companys keeping a lid on this to keep the price up
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 12:54:52 AM »

The next thing they’ll be telling us is the fossils found in coal are not real......

This sounds like a feel good story put out by the marketing arm of Big Oil to make us think everything is going to be fine.  Keep burning more oil and get the price back up to $100/barrel.  

I recall some professor spending a lot of other people’s money to drill a super deep hole in Sweden (I believe) decades ago to “prove” this idea.  It came up dry.

The problem with this idea is the complex nature of oil.  It isn’t just a simple molecule like methane (CH4), but is a polymer of many Carbons and Hydrogens.  Oil comes apart under too much pressure or temperature.  It turns to CH4.  That’s why the world is drowning in natural gas but NOT oil.  Oil eventually breaks apart into natural gas as the pressures and temps increase over time with the sediments above.

The hypothesis (not theory) has been around for a while…..and proved wrong at least once!
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 10:20:29 AM »

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i guess big oil companys keeping a lid on this to keep the price up

but oil companies are continually looking for new fields and trying to get permissions to drill new wells.  they are not the main factor in keeping prices up.  groups like OPEC, which will set production limits, are, along with regulations and taxes that are added all along the way.

Quote
This sounds like a feel good story put out by the marketing arm of Big Oil to make us think everything is going to be fine.  Keep burning more oil and get the price back up to $100/barrel. 


fair enough, but wouldn't they want info on this hypothesis out there rather than kept quiet? 

Quote
The hypothesis (not theory) has been around for a while…..and proved wrong at least once!

one drilling does not a proof make.  if the Russians are to be believe and using your threshold of "proof", it has been proved more than once.

this is certainly outside the scope of my knowledge, although i intend to learn more.  seems to me that the industry/interest groups most likely to be damaged if this were true, would be the entire green industry.  and a lot of people have hung their hats on that....

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 02:11:21 PM »

The green energy plan just doesn’t make any sense.   Unfortunately Obama got this one wrong.

If you want to replace dirty coal, there is more than enough natural gas to do that.  It burns clean, no mercury, no soot, and we're drowning in the stuff.  Natural gas has been cheaper per BTU than coal recently.  It’s much cheaper than wind, solar, or nuclear.  The USA is a net exporter of natural gas!  It just doesn’t make ANY sense why this is not our prime solution for generating electricity in the near term.

The bigger problem is replacing oil.  The biggest use of oil is making our cars go.  The way to solve the oil problem is not “drill baby drill”, but engineer baby engineer.  Our tax dollars should not be wasted on these solar and wind ponzi schemes, but on basic automotive research.  Solar and wind don’t make cars go, why are we wasting money on them? 

If you drill baby drill, even the most enthusiastic Republicans would (should) concede you’re not going to double world oil production.  However if you engineer baby engineer, you DO have a chance of doubling vehicle efficiencies which doubles how long current oil reserves would last.  Double the reserves and half the world’s daily crude consumption and the price of oil drops like a rock. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 02:36:04 PM »

coal is expensive because of the restrictions that have lately been put on it. 

i don't have a problem with looking for oil alternatives.  the government should not be involved in it except to the extent they can encourage (not fund) that research.  there are a number of ways to encourage this research.  they can ease the patent process, ease the regulation/permitting process, offer some kind of tax incentive to the companies that can come up with working and cost effective alternatives to oil/gas.  the company or person who comes up with the alternative will be very wealthy.  nothing motivates success more than profit.

in the mean time, we can drill baby drill.  other than to satisfy an agenda, there is no reason not to drill.
aside from our cars, oil products are used in many of the items we use every day, never mind trains, trucks, planes, etc.  can we find an alternative to oil that will cover everything? if we can't, and we don't drill, our lives will radically change......and not for the better.

i am a fan of natural gas, but until you can get the tree huggers out of the way, it's going to have the same problems that gas and coal have.  look at the problems we are having here trying to build an LNG line across a couple of states.

coal is also cheap and we have an abundance of high quality, cleaner burning, coal in this country.  we have plenty in this country for our needs and to export...but again, agenda is in the way of practicality.  as coal burning plants need to be replaces we can look at other things to power them.  for now, it would be cost prohibitive to redo all coal plants.

we have another clean, free, and abundant energy source and that is hydro.  because of tree huggers we do not build more dams and in fact, we are removing many of them. dams are not only good for power, but they are good for recreation, and flood control.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 02:38:20 PM »

While I realize you are thinking out loud, when you research this further you will probably come to the realization this is just dis-information. Just Google 'Peak Oil' and ASPO. There are a lot of sane, rational, educated, experienced folks studying the states of all the major oil fields and they agree that we are past peak.

All of the major oil fields are past 'peak' and are in decline. The state of the largest oil field, Ghawar in Saudia Arabia,  cannot be verified because the Saudis won't allow independent verification, but Aramco insiders have verified that Ghawar is post peak. And with that line of thought, if there is so much abiotic oil, why are the Saudis only drilling now offshore.

If the abiotic theory was true, then we should be able to pump forever. Abiotic oil is a fairy tale, IMHO.

I have been studying this for over 8 years and nowadays I usually don't even bother commenting on this, as most folks don't want to hear it. For me, I have too much to do learning and preparing to live with less of it in the future, than to waste my time 'discussing' it.
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 03:53:11 PM »

i am thinking aloud.  it's less about the accuracy of the thought, than the fact that there are agenda driven people who intentionally block info from the public.

same reason the global warming/climate change argument makes me nuts.  there is no consensus.  there is not proof that climate change is man made...on and on...yet if you challenge these folks you are smacked up side the head.

many of these oil fields were supposed to be empty long ago?  might we just be pumping faster than they can refill...and in that case, it would be a good thing to find new fields.  is there a difference between what we find in shallow wells and what we find very deep?

i have a shallow well.  used to empty the well in about 20 min if i forgot and left the hose on.  it took at least an hour the fill the well again.  lots of cussing involved if i dumped the prime....but it did refill. i realize water and oil are not the same, but the same principle would apply if these guys were correct. 

the russians have chosen to search for oil using the abiotic oil field parameters.  understanding that it's hard to trust info out of russia, what we do know seems to show that they have had some success.  it doesn't seem that a lot of real science has been put into proving them wrong.  like climate change, it seems to be "settled" in the minds of many.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Shanevrr
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 09:46:52 PM »

Invent a battery that never goes bad that can hold at least 10 times the power of what we have now,  you will be a trillionair within 10 years and oil companys gone within 20
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 10:21:35 PM »

there ya go.  i would add that it needs to be affordable.  if you can only market to a few wealthy people you probably would only be a billionaire.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
b reeves
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2011, 08:26:53 AM »

the original theory of were oil came from was proved by the fact the oil contained the leftover remains of the creatures that formed it , but then they found oil that had none of this proof, no microscopic evidence, this leads science to try and develop a theory about its origin, it is just more proof that we don't know more than we know, keep in mind that if this were true I believe the price of oil would drop, this seem to mimic the GW theory there are a lot of people that have a vested interest in proving that it exists, follow the money
Bob
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