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Author Topic: top entries & insulation  (Read 5306 times)

Offline derekm

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2011, 12:18:25 PM »
Bees generate enough heat to keep the entire colony and the cavity in a tree lined with rotten wood at 34c  with it at -20c outside. So why do you chill your bees finski? Is it because you think you know better than the bees. Too fine to be true or do you need more understanding of physics?

britain is a Great Country. 60 million people. 10 times more than were have. Thanks to geography distance to Britain from my soffa is1950 kilometres.

I am not afraid when I say that the British do not understand much heat economy of the beehives. I intended to say beekeeping but I did not say.

Heh heh. -20 C outside and the whole tree trunk +34C.  
I have heard that sometimes you get a snow rain in Britain and sometime ponds have 1 cm ice cover.


Finski we have something called Science in our country, our science has gone from pole to pole., and some of my countrymen know vastly more about heat than you will ever do and have done for centuries... (go find out the Nationality of Joule, Watt and Kelvin)
and dont misquote and hide behind your language difference for effect.  It was -20c outside  and the CAVITY at 34C.

If you want to say derekm knows nothing about heat economy of hive, dont be shy, come right out WRITE IT AND THEN PROVE IT! and unless you want to be called how you act, dont use
RACIST ad hominem.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2011, 01:36:18 PM »
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
.
Language barrier NOT included

Offline derekm

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2011, 01:56:24 PM »
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
You arent looking:

one UK beekeeper who reads research - I do and I have quoted them on this forum

You want one paper on  Bee research in UK(scientist dont usually give their nationality in their papers so I will take it from the title)  - Colony losses in Scotland in 2004-2006 from a sample survey. by Magnus Peterson, Alison Gray, Alan Teale. Journal of Apicultural ResearchVol. 48 (2) pp. 145 - 146
Honey bee winter loss survey for England, 2007-8 David Aston Journal of Apicultural Research Vol. 49 (1) pp. 111-112
There are lots more...

This took all of 30 seconds to find.



If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline FRAMEshift

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2011, 02:14:00 PM »
Thanks to geography distance to Britain from my soffa is1950 kilometres.

Is this the one?   Finski's sofa

What part of Finland do you live in?  Closest town?
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline derekm

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2011, 02:27:02 PM »
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
another

 Does infection by Nosema ceranae cause
“Colony Collapse Disorder” in honey bees (Apis mellifera)?
Robert J. Paxton1,2*
1School of Biological Sciences, Queen’s University Belfast, MBC 97 Lisburn Road, Belfast BT9 7BL, UK.

another
Declines of managed honey bees and beekeepers
in Europe
Simon G Potts1*, Stuart P M Roberts1, Robin Dean2, Gay Marris3, Mike A Brown3, Richard Jones4,
Peter Neumann5,6,7 and Josef Settele8
1Centre for Agri-Environmental Research, University of Reading, RG6 6AR, UK.
2Red Beehive Company, 51, Elm Road, Bishops Waltham, Southampton, SO32 1JR, UK.
3National Bee Unit, Food and Environment Research Agency, Sand Hutton, York YO41 1LZ, UK.
4International Bee Research Association, 16, North Road, Cardiff, CF10 3DY, UK.
5Swiss Bee Research Centre, Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux Research Station ALP, CH-3033 Bern, Switzerland.
6Department of Zoology and Entomology, Rhodes University, Grahamstown 6140, South Africa.
7Eastern Bee Research Institute of Yunnan Agricultural University, Kunming, Yunnan Province, China.
8Department of Community Ecology, Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research - UFZ, Leipzig-Halle, D-06120 Halle,
Germany.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2011, 02:29:57 PM »
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
another
Honey bee colony losses
Peter Neumann1,2,* and Norman L Carreck3,4
1Swiss Bee Research Centre, Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux Research Station ALP, CH-3033 Bern, Switzerland.
2Department of Zoology and Entomology, Rhodes University, Grahamstown 6140, South Africa.
3International Bee Research Association, 16, North Road, Cardiff, CF10 3DY, UK.
4Department of Biological and Environmental Science, University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton, East Sussex, BN1 9QG, UK.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2011, 02:36:01 PM »
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
another
Are honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) native to the British Isles? Norman CarreckJournal of Apicultural Research
   
and finally we have a goverment agency doing research http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/news/newsArticle1.cfm


If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Stone

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2011, 06:38:56 PM »
To clarify my plan: One piece of ceiling tile directly on top of the top medium super.  Lays just like an inner cover. Bee space is maintained. This has a hole in the center - just like an inner cover.  This stuff is literally compressed shredded paper. It's made to absorb sound.  It also absorbs water extremely well.  I got this idea at a bee club meeting.  Sounded logical to me.

A piece of styrofoam insulation on top of this - also with a hole.  Then a vented super with two screened 3/4 inch holes on each side. One is unscreened for a top entrance.

The theory: The warm, moist, less dense air rises (actually is "pushed" up by denser, colder air) and a good deal escapes through the holes and out the vents.  Hopefully, since the tile has insulation on top, its temperature does not drop a great deal thereby limiting condensation on its interior surface.  What does condense is absorbed by the  tile.  The heat generated by the bees inside will also hopefully evaporate some of this absorbed moisture. Anyway, it's better that the cold wood surface of an inner cover which is sure to have lots of condensation since it's exposed to the cold outside air.



Offline annette

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2011, 07:39:50 PM »
OK Stone, I understand now.

Annette

Offline Tommyt

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2011, 08:10:56 PM »
To clarify my plan: One piece of ceiling tile directly on top of the top medium super.  Lays just like an inner cover. Bee space is maintained. This has a hole in the center - just like an inner cover.  This stuff is literally compressed shredded paper. It's made to absorb sound.  It also absorbs water extremely well.  I got this idea at a bee club meeting.  Sounded logical to me.
I  see you got this from your bee club,but if it were me I would be very worried of the"ceiling tile" type?
I've worked around it, on and off for years it does absorb water, but not in a good way it doesn't do well with moisture
tends to sag then crumble,but I am not up north,don't know,if what your using is different.
In Fl its one of the last things to go in, if you don't keep the moisture out of it,(air conditioning on)you end up replacing it.
I saw many have changed to gypsum tile the other ones were cellulose (I think) those are the ones with little holes in them
 the crumble ones looked like this, (doesn't mean they all do)
"Not everything found on the internet is accurate"
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Offline Stone

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2011, 09:08:07 PM »
Tommy,
Your point is well taken.  The material suggested at this meeting was Homosote, "like ceiling tile".  I went looking for it and found the two identical. And the photo you sent seems to be identical to the material I have in mind.  You are right, it does sag.  And I've thought about this and have some reservations about using it. 

By the way, what do you mean by, "...it's one of the last things to go in". ?

Offline Tommyt

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2011, 12:14:53 AM »
Quote
"...it's one of the last things to go in".
I worked on drug, grocery and strip stores
It was the one of the last things to go in on a new Store
I need to write what I am thinking? lol
 I was going to mention if you do try it, you may want to put
a piece of burlap or some type of cloth under it,if it does deteriorate
you can lift the tile off using the cloth to keep it from crumbling
into your hive.

Tommyt
"Not everything found on the internet is accurate"
Abraham Lincoln

Offline Finski

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2011, 01:18:54 AM »
The theory: The warm, moist, less dense air rises (actually is "pushed" up by denser, colder air) and a good deal escapes through the holes and out the vents.  Hopefully, since the tile has insulation on top, its temperature does not drop a great deal thereby limiting condensation on its interior surface.  What does condense is absorbed by the  tile.  The heat generated by the



in that meaning I use an inner cover which has 10 mm wooden board (10 x 50 mm slices).
Abobe that there is 70 mm foam plastic matress (recycled). NO HOLE. Moisture moves through the wood and foam plastic.  it transfer quite much moisture because the aluminium plate rain cove has a lot water droplets inwards the loft.

Wood must be 5 cm clices because moisture twist 10 cm board.

That it called respirative structure. Nowadays it is used mere styrofoam cover, but I like to keep the cover clean with torsch. That cover is in condition about 20 years. Plastic foam matresses are avaible all the time and I shange them when they are dirty.

However, there is NO REASON TO LEAD MOIST VENTILATION AIR VIA HOLE INSIDE THE LOFT.
Make a hole in front wall and lead ventilation direct out like you do in human houses.

Have you "condensation tiles" on your loft or in animal shelters. No one has.

.
Language barrier NOT included

Offline rdy-b

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2011, 01:44:41 AM »
 I run a 1 1/2 feed rim for feeding pollen sub-drilled a 5/8 inch hole in the rim
 moister needs a exit point-and the drilled hole provides it-that is how to keep hive dry
 give moister exit point- 8-) RDY-B

Offline Stone

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2011, 10:48:10 AM »
Well, most of us seem to agree that moist, warm air needs an exit.  On a few of my hives I have holes drilled into the top mediums. They will be corked for winter. On all of them, I have a  ventilated super I wrote about - with one of the four 3/4 inch holes unscreened for a top entrance. When I ran top bar hives (which I got rid of fast!), I always made sure there was a plan for convective movement of air to cut down on the moisture inside the hive. (I learned a hard lesson about this after my first winter.)  I make sure I do this now in all my Langs.

Offline Stone

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2011, 10:54:53 AM »
Finski,
It's pretty clear that you are trying to be useful with your posts but it's often extremely hard to understand what you are trying to say on this forum.  Written communication is tough enough in one's own native language and there are often misunderstandings that must be clarified in later posts.  Might I suggest you proofread your posts before you hit "reply" so that we all can understand exactly what you want to tell us? Thanks. 

Offline rdy-b

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2011, 10:39:35 PM »
 we have a member GAUCHO10 who has done alot of work with top entrace
and vented inercover-  http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,26190.0.html

  http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/Ventilated_Inner_Cover.html

   ;)  RDY-B

Offline T Beek

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2011, 07:37:10 AM »
rdy-b;  thanks for re-posting GAUCHO10 thread.  Must've been incapacitated when it was written as I don't know how else I could have missed it.  Thanks again (and thanks to GAUCHO10 for his efforts as well).

thomas
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline Finski

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2011, 07:54:08 AM »
Finski,
It's pretty clear that you are trying to be useful with your posts but it's often extremely hard to understand what you are trying to say on this forum. 

surely i am not so bad. But I am not going to see more pain for better understanding.
 

If I write, drill a 1,5 mm hole in front wall, do you understand.

If I write, you need not other arrangements in upper ventilation, is it so clear?

Against one hive owners' wisdom I do not have tools. 

.beekeepers love humbug.  then they loose their colonies but never mind.

I have written many years here but it has not meaning. The gang has their own tricks and they do not give up.
.
Language barrier NOT included

Offline BlueBee

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Re: top entries & insulation
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2011, 12:43:57 PM »
Finski, you write English just fine.  I would listen to your advice even if you wrote in Finnish :)
Good advice is better than humbug.

 

anything