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Author Topic: Another stupid proverb  (Read 2784 times)
Finski
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« on: September 04, 2011, 12:14:20 AM »

.
First stupid saying is that bees heath the cluster, not the hive. That is nonsence. When you sit in the car, your body heats the interior of the car even if you do not want. 4 persons in the car and you notice it better.

Another stupid sentence is "cold does not kill bees but moisture does"

the colder the winter the more dead hives.

The more cold in winter, the more dry weather.

Moisture inside the hive and cold weather outside are totally different things and you need to handle these things with different tricks.

You need not over react on these things. Bees stand some amount condensation inside the hive, but continuous moist air make them sick.

Bees stand very well short frost periods like -30C, but if that frost continues couple of months, parts of clusters will die, and finally the whole hive.

A small cluster must make more work to keep itself warm than a big hive.
Then its gut will be filled and the poo exploses inside the hive. Or a bee try to fly out to make poo and die on that course.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 11:02:43 AM by Finski » Logged

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iddee
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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2011, 12:28:26 AM »

Good post. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks that way.
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 12:36:43 AM »

Bluebee thinks like you guys too  grin
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2011, 12:52:24 AM »

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T Beek
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2011, 12:08:59 PM »

Comparing humans with bees is stupid (not my first choice of words, just following OP) rolleyes.  

Four people sitting all night in a car in subfreezing temps could very likely be dead by morning.  Same four people in an unheated house would suffer the same fate, just might take a bit longer.  

While humans generate 'some' heat its not enough to keep us alive in freezing temps. Even with 50 people in an unheated house, with out 'artificial' heat they would be stiff by Spring, no question, and much unlike bees.  

Man I love this topic Wink

Seems like someone(s) freezes to death every year up here, doesn't take long at minus 25 (F).

thomas
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 04:22:24 PM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2011, 02:51:19 PM »

Comparing humans with bees is stupid (not my first choice of words, just following OP) rolleyes

Four people sitting all night in a car in subfreezing temps could very likely be dead by morning.  Same four people in an unheated house would suffer the same fate, just might take a bit longer. 

While humans generate 'some' heat its not enough to keep us alive in freezing temps. Even with 50 people in an unheated house, with out 'artifical' heat would be stiff by Spring, no question, and much unlike bees. 

Man I love this topic Wink

Seems like someone(s) freezes to death every year up here, doesn't take long at minus 25 (F).

thomas

Don't know if I would throw around personal assaults on people.  That stuff has landed more then one person on the ban list.  Finski is an experienced beekeeper that has been keeping bees alive in a climate in which most of us would give up.  Now that being said disagreeing is one thing but he does have a right to his opinion just as you do. 

For what it's worth makes sense to me what he is trying to convey even if maybe it wasn't done in a way you deem the best example.
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T Beek
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2011, 03:43:51 PM »

My climate is only slightly less harsh than Finski's (we're expecting temps in the low 30's tonite), who as we all know has many years of beekeeping experience, he tells us all the time. 

My own beekeeping history began over 30 years ago.  It is unfortunate however that experience doesn't always equate good teachers.  My bees have tolerated very cold temps pretty well for me but they will surely die when/if they get cold AND wet.  That reality shouldn't even be a debate. 

As far as throwing around personal assaults (opinions?), it was Finski who labled this post in a derogatory, confrontational and unnecessary manner (he does it all the time, its generally humorous), and that only lessens his credibility as an experienced beekeeper from my perspective (just my opinion Wink).

All I did was call him on it (he's rarely responded though huh) which is my way.  Sorry for the crossfire, I thought my aim was right on.

thomas
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Finski
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2011, 04:25:07 PM »

.
Hi Beek. How it is possible to be cold and wet at same time?

-20C and water rain?
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derekm
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2011, 04:35:28 PM »

Comparing humans with bees is stupid (not my first choice of words, just following OP) rolleyes.  

Four people sitting all night in a car in subfreezing temps could very likely be dead by morning.  Same four people in an unheated house would suffer the same fate, just might take a bit longer.  

While humans generate 'some' heat its not enough to keep us alive in freezing temps. Even with 50 people in an unheated house, with out 'artificial' heat they would be stiff by Spring, no question, and much unlike bees.  

Man I love this topic Wink

Seems like someone(s) freezes to death every year up here, doesn't take long at minus 25 (F).

thomas



no its quite easy to survive in low temperatures,     you just need insulation and food. Four people in the right house wouldn't die,
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
Finski
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2011, 04:41:56 PM »

.
I live on 60 latitude. Could you look where that line goes in North America.

Wisconsin is situated on 47 latitude.   same climate?

 
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T Beek
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2011, 04:53:33 PM »

One way would be to add bees, bee-heat and/or respiration to cold temps inside a sealed box with no way for it to exit.  

For the record, our winters in North Wisconsin can be very wet AND very cold, even at the same time (Finland its not, although our winter is just a bit shorter, meaning first killing frost to last).  Have you never spent any time outside when its snowing?  As gathered from  much experience  Wink without some sort of protection  or even with some, most of us would be wet AND cold pretty fast, from the outside AND the inside.  Try it sometime (I can't wait).

Are you trying to bait me Finski (or prove my point for me)?  What is the 'real' point of your question?  Are we going to learn something from all this?   All right, now where did he go?

I was under the impression that you've been doing this awhile, am I mistaken Wink?  

Honestly, I stopped calling people and their beliefs 'stupid' if I happened to disagree w/ them back in grade school, (Politicians being the ONLY exception) but I hope I'm never beyond calling someone out for doing so.

thomas
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 05:52:23 PM by T Beek » Logged

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T Beek
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2011, 05:05:14 PM »

derekm;  have you ever felt 30 below zero (F)?.  People die from cold every year, in houses, in cars etc...Your assertion is lacking reality.

thomas
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derekm
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2011, 05:12:52 PM »

derekm;  have you ever felt 30 below zero (F)?.  People die from cold every year, in houses, in cars etc...Your assertion is lacking reality.

thomas

Yes, I have many times. As an experienced  winter mountaineer and skiier trained in winter survival, I know  how to stay warm and dry. In extreme conditions most people die from ignorance. If there is snow that you can dig into or pile around you (insulation) and you have food you can survive.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2011, 05:36:12 PM »

This opinion (full of 'ifs') is based on personal experience then, so that's 1 (or a handful) in 6 billion I guess.  I propose that even with the best conditions and preparedness many actually do die (ignorant or not) when confronted with extreme weather.   I don't know why its a debate (except to just debate).  With the experience you have I'd think you'd know that.  Blame it on ignorance if that feels better grin

thomas
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derekm
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2011, 06:04:18 PM »

This opinion is based on personal experience then, so that's 1 (or a handful) in 6 billion I guess.  I propose that even with the best conditions and preparedness many actually do die (ignorant or not) when confronted with extreme weather.   I don't know why its a debate (except to just debate).  With the experience you have I'd think you'd know that.  Blame it on ignorance if that feels better grin

thomas
People are killing bees by not applying the  basic physics that they could use to save themselves one day.  The same physical laws apply to bees, humans, hives and houses. Not knowing them is ignorance, refusing to apply them either stupidity or cruelty.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2011, 06:20:14 PM »

People kill bees because that's what people do.  We're very good at killing and justifying it. 

Jeesh, please don't get me started on this subject.

thomas
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2011, 08:11:03 PM »


   Ware I live we get lots of condensation the outside temperature  goes above and below freezeing a lot Just my $0.02

    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley


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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2011, 08:50:08 PM »

.
Hi Beek. How it is possible to be cold and wet at same time?

Don't you get the "cow's breath" out of Russia?  I had a Finnish friend who told me about that.
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2011, 10:26:40 PM »

.
Have I ever been in snow rain

At the age of 64 I say never....
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Finski
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2011, 10:48:55 PM »

.
Hi Beek

an adult generates 60 W heat.
30 persons generates 1800 w. You cannot heat the house with that power but
you may close room doors  and restrict the heat escaping.

You may bye a sleeping bag and you may sleep in temperature -40C.


I have never heard about Russian cow breath.  I am sitting now on soffa and it is 30 miles from here to Russian border. What I feel here is great forest fires. Last summer they burned area which is half of Finland. This year fires have been worse, but somehow the smoke has not come here.

Last summer the mayor of Moscow was kicked off. When fires were very bad, the mayor went to his datsha to nurse bees and Putin felt that he should go to look fires what is going out there.

Near Moscow 28 military air planes were toasted on debot yard. To citizens it was told to leave Moscow for smoke. 

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T Beek
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2011, 07:40:36 AM »

If true one can only 'assume' that you just haven't lived long enough yet or you haven't spent enough time outside in harsh weather or your just one who is able to blindly ignore extreme conditions. 

You choose, as this is all very tiring and serves no purpose. 

I'm ashamed that I got caught up in the game.  I'll try not to let it happen again....NOT. 

People surviving in a sleeping bag???  For how long?   A few days at best.  I just don't get the joke or the debate. 

The 30 persons you mention in an un-heated house would all still be dead (frozen stiff) come Spring in North Wisconsin

thomas 
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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2011, 08:00:37 AM »

Tbeek,
If you read Hankdogs post in this thread I think he gave some good advice. Cool it. If you don't agree so so and let that be it.Finski never directed his OP at anyone directly,just at the general idea. On the other hand your response was verging on a personal attack. This is the kind of thing I made a post about earlier in the week about.It makes for a lot of work for the Mod staff when this stuff takes off running. And believe it or not,we all volunteer our time here.We all have regular day jobs and watch over the forum in our spare time.Which we generally enjoy.
I did not originally call any one directly to the carpet,but as there are a select few that like to constantly agitate one another it may be time to take other actions.
So all that see this and like jumping on a bandwagon when it comes along,remember the bandwagon can come to a screeching halt.

With that being said,agree to disagree kindly or keep your thoughts from the keyboard.
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T Beek
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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2011, 08:48:25 AM »

Sorry buzzbee, no offence intended, but I've never called anyones ideas or opinions stupid, nor have I ever attacked anyone (since taking off the uniform anyway), you'll have to show me proof of that. 

It does seem apparent that some (just a few) posters have free reign to belittle anyone they desire w/ no noticable consequence at all.  There are some who clearly deserve admonishment from the forum, but who just keep getting away w/ confrontational behavior over and over. 

Before ever posting a single word on Beemaster I was a lurker for over two years, but I still chose this forum over others because it seemed more civil.  It's a shame mods aren't able to chime in 'before' these things digress.  You must know who the trouble makers are.  Am I now on that list?

I can only apologize for sinking to the same level (as others) if that's what I've been accused of and will refrain from being baited into these debates in the future, but I must ask;

Is this a two way forum or a one way forum?   

Again, I sincerely apologize if I've offended anyone on the forum. 

thomas
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2011, 09:07:51 AM »

Comparing humans with bees is stupid (not my first choice of words, just following OP) rolleyes.  


No list kept,just sometimes cabin fever sets in way too early it seems. I wish I had time to jump in every time. Or time to read every post every day. But I don't.
There have been many instances when regulars have been reeled in. Generally it's a one time thing and we forgive and forget.It just depends on the people involved.
And there were a few other threads involving other posters that I had mentioned about before I just throw caution out now and again. No hard feelings.

Key phrase in your post: "Don't get baited in!" Smiley
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derekm
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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2011, 02:00:05 PM »

If true one can only 'assume' that you just haven't lived long enough yet or you haven't spent enough time outside in harsh weather or your just one who is able to blindly ignore extreme conditions.  

You choose, as this is all very tiring and serves no purpose.  

I'm ashamed that I got caught up in the game.  I'll try not to let it happen again....NOT.  

People surviving in a sleeping bag???  For how long?   A few days at best.  I just don't get the joke or the debate.  

The 30 persons you mention in an un-heated house would all still be dead (frozen stiff) come Spring in North Wisconsin

thomas  

Food + water + insulation = survival you dont need heat if you have enough insulation.  See Iniut see laplander see polar expolartion... Read about the heroes of Telemark.
Amundsen walked to the south pole... he didnt fly and his stoves were to cook the food!

Bees and humans are heat engines that convert carbohydrates into energy, water and Co2, they have a limited range of heat loss they can sustain, It is ably demonstrated by human emdeavour that they can survive given sufficient insulation, food and water. Scientific studies have shown bees can do it given suffiencent insulation food and water.

The point is of this thread is to provoke thought and reasoning  about the environment you provide to your bees  not to rely on proverbs.
Reasoning will result in You providing your bees with both insulation and food. and understand that putting them a convection driven chiller is cruelty or a failure in reasoning

A 3/4" wooden beehive needs 6Watts for every degree C change in temp (only if you dont make into a U.S. beekeeping convection chiller it takes a lot more if you do). Commercial foam hives in Europe are 0.7 of a watt per degree C. It is easy to make a hive that is 0.25 Watt or lower  for every degree C. That means you can have a hive where if the little buzzers wanted could be at 34C in the whole hive with it -40C outside.

I can go to my local builders yard and get materials  and build a small box room in a cold store at -40C with a k value of just under  1 watt per degree C in which I would happily sit naked (with no heating)  Supply me with food, water  beer and  a chemical toilet and a TV(low power LED). I use the same physics

T Beek  I fear no word are going to convince you - why dont you do some experiments, with a 20w heater and a temperature probe and some insulation materials. Do not rely on proverbs and 100 year old practices
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:44:15 PM by derekm » Logged

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2011, 03:58:03 PM »

derekm,

I agree with a great deal of what you are saying. But it is unclear to me if you are actively against ventilation (in proper moderation) or simply choosing to ignore the need for air exchange.

The degree to which this is necessary will of course be largely controlled by local climate.

Food water and insulation are adequate only for short term survival, for long term health you need proper air quality.
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derekm
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2011, 05:33:17 PM »

ventilation...all for it , we are talking method, timing amount.
The idea is to keep the hive temp within the bees range of control in a well insulated hive:  in winter or when heat must be husbanded  wall convection circulation. i.e. bottom entrance only with open mesh floor or baffled variant.  In summer or when heat is in surplus, chimney convection i.e. a top vent or entrance with a bottom vent or entrance.
Reason does not suggest "a sealed hive", more like a trapped bubble of warmth in a open bottomed  container for winter. The low tunnel entrance design of an igloo is not by chance.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 05:43:27 PM by derekm » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2011, 07:46:18 PM »

I would think a open mesh floor (even with baffles) in my environment in winter would render insulation almost useless.  wind blowing across that would cause an air exchange rate far surpassing the abilities of the bees heat output in winter cluster. The bubble you describe  would only exist in the calmest conditions beyond those you are going to get turbulent mixing not a convective cell inside the hive.

A small top vent does utilize a chimney effect (if there is also a bottom entrance) but air flow can be restricted to the desired rate by opening size.
A bottom entrance alone (no mesh) is attractive in the same way as your igloo analogy, but proper sizing would seem critical to insure enough air flow to avoid issues with damp under a variety of conditions.

I don't pretend to have the right solutions, I would just argue that the problem is complex and nuanced.



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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2011, 12:30:53 AM »

.
One stupid proverb more......

"I heat oven, not room air".  yeas you do if you use a oven mass as heat store.
When i was child we had only oven heating.  over night kitchen door was closed that heat does not escape to empty room.

When we woke up in the morning and went to kitchen to drink tea, there was about 10C.

Then it came oil heating. The oil burner transfered the heat directly to the room air. The oil burner did not store any energy.

Same is with electrict heating. Thermostate takes the heat level from air and heat the air.
Heat is stored to the building an it take a time to chill out.

If you try to heat open air with electrict heather, you know what happens.

Then we have an infrared radiator. When waves meet an object, waves transform to  heat and heats the object.

THE WHOLE CLUE IS, THAT WE HAVE A ENERGY SOURCE AND HOW WE AVOID THE HEAT TO ESCAPE.

.My opinion is that mesh floor do not help us in that technology.

The smaller the room the smaller the surface which conduct the heat.  then a proper ventilation that we do not suffocate or we do not get headace for too big carbon diokside contend. 

.
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2011, 01:59:30 AM »

>While humans generate 'some' heat its not enough to keep us alive in freezing temps.

Actually I have lived in subzero temperatures outside for weeks with no other humans to keep me warm.  We humans generate plenty of heat if we are wrapped up well enough.
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2011, 04:51:17 AM »

I would think a open mesh floor (even with baffles) in my environment in winter would render insulation almost useless.  wind blowing across that would cause an air exchange rate far surpassing the abilities of the bees heat output in winter cluster. The bubble you describe  would only exist in the calmest conditions beyond those you are going to get turbulent mixing not a convective cell inside the hive.

A small top vent does utilize a chimney effect (if there is also a bottom entrance) but air flow can be restricted to the desired rate by opening size.
A bottom entrance alone (no mesh) is attractive in the same way as your igloo analogy, but proper sizing would seem critical to insure enough air flow to avoid issues with damp under a variety of conditions.

I don't pretend to have the right solutions, I would just argue that the problem is complex and nuanced



A bottom mesh directly in the wind flow is yet another proverb.  The design of the floor and entrance needs to be carefully done. the floor section under the mesh needs to be  baffled  to allow free vertical movement of detritius and prevent air movement for 2" to 3" under the floor caused by air movement outside the hive. This cannot be done in a 3/4" deep floor.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2011, 05:33:41 AM »

So I see the general consensus (all seemingly based on personal experience) from this post is that no one ever dies from exposure to extreme weather unless they're ignorant (not 'my' word, please see above poster). 

And its good to keep bees warm (even artificially) but people don't need any heat to survive winter.  Got it Wink   

OK, OK, OK, you all win grin.   Its giving me a major headache.

I'll try and find a way to forget about those who have turned into Popsicle's over the years grin. (some I apparently mistook for highly intelligent).

Never would've imagined I'd loose (give up/forced out of) this debate, but my head just exploded from all the expert opinions grin.

thomas
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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2011, 07:23:10 AM »

Bo.. A small kid can drown in a 5 gallon bucket,

Mo..No they can't. I emptied the bucket.

Bo.. Yes they can. I put water back in it.

Mo.. No they can't. It evaporated.

Bo.. Yes they can. It rained last night.

Mo.. No they can't. The dog drank it.

Some of the words describing intelligence above may be spot on.
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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2011, 08:55:33 AM »

 Who's on first
NO....who.... is on second

IDDEE I agree but for the record
I use a Pail "not a bucket" grin
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« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2011, 09:11:31 AM »

Tommy, that sounds like a pale, pail, pell argument to me.   tongue
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2011, 09:15:04 AM »

I am quickly growing tired of this site. All the mud slinging, and snot-nosing is REDICULOUS. I wish the Moderators would BAN the crap out of anyone who comes on another persons thread just to disagree.

Some people pick their nose, some people blow it. As long as we are all breathing.... So be it.

 Moderators, please tighten things up. Dont let 3 people ruin this site, I will be the first to stop coming here.
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Matt
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Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2011, 01:01:30 PM »

Regardless of agreeing or disagreeing , the whole argument of hive versus cluster is moot for most of us.  We already have our preferred method of caring for our hives.  Most aren't going to do too much for the hives, a few will insulate, even fewer are going to bother heating.  And we're willing to deal with any consequences.

20 years ago, the winter kill rate was about 20%.  I doubt that was with extreme measures such as heating a hive.  And personally, I find 80% survival acceptable.  They didn't bother back then.

Plenty of hives survive just fine for years in leaky creaky old boxes.  Some even in buckets and pails. grin

Yes, I agree a little extra heat is going to help a hive survive, as evidenced from my 2 frame observation hive surviving the winter.  But it really isn't worth it in the majority of cases.
 
I usually pick first, just to loosen things up, then blow.
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Rick
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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2011, 01:49:40 PM »

Regardless of agreeing or disagreeing , the whole argument of hive versus cluster is moot for most of us.  We already have our preferred method of caring for our hives.  Most aren't going to do too much for the hives, a few will insulate, even fewer are going to bother heating.  And we're willing to deal with any consequences.

20 years ago, the winter kill rate was about 20%.  I doubt that was with extreme measures such as heating a hive.  And personally, I find 80% survival acceptable.  They didn't bother back then.

Plenty of hives survive just fine for years in leaky creaky old boxes.  Some even in buckets and pails. grin

Yes, I agree a little extra heat is going to help a hive survive, as evidenced from my 2 frame observation hive surviving the winter.  But it really isn't worth it in the majority of cases.
 
I usually pick first, just to loosen things up, then blow.

So  they fixed in their ways even if the dollar return is less with the old ways compared to the new...illogical but  facinating as the alien with the pointy ears used to say.
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If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?
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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2011, 08:40:06 PM »

Time to lock this thread,it has outlived any purpose.
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