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Author Topic: Organic varroa mite control  (Read 4221 times)
czman11
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« on: August 23, 2011, 12:49:03 AM »

Hi everybody, I came across an interesting page today and since we cannot place links in to a body of the message you are going to have to translate it from the clue below this post. It is quite interesting reading on varroa free beekeeping using "foundation less" frames. If any of you guys or galls have a time to look at it and have any knowledge to support this technique, give me a feedback. Positive or negative, I welcome any feedback.

web site starts with the www, and after goes waldeneffect. After that goes org, than slash, than blog, slash again and on the end is Organic_varoa_mite_control
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indypartridge
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2011, 07:05:01 AM »

Nothing new. Michael Bush has been advocating foundationless frames for a long time:
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2011, 07:26:45 AM »

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And hundreds  of beekeepers have lost their hives with those tricks.

You understand that all beehives in the nature are foundationless. In évery country varroa killed first those wild hives. Dead rate has been over 90%.

We lost all feral bees from the country. Since that no German Black bees have been seen here.
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Poppi
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 06:44:11 PM »

Finski,  you make a very good point.  I remember reading that most if not all feral hives were the first to be wiped out by varroa.  That the "feral hives" of today actually come from swarms escaping to the wild from beekeepers.   I can see pros and cons for foundation and foundationless.
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 06:51:28 PM »

i don't think foundation has anything to do with mite control.  i do think that foundationless allows the bees to build the size and type of cells that they want to build.  it also keeps you from putting pesticide contaminated wax in your hives if that's something you are concerned about.  it saves money.  it saves work.

it can be messy if it doesn't get started correctly and some hives are just messy no matter what. 

bees that survive disease and pests do so because they develop the tools to cope.  i tend to think it's genetics.  the survivor hives pass those genetics on. it's no different than any other creature.  adapt or die.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 11:14:32 PM »

>I remember reading that most if not all feral hives were the first to be wiped out by varroa. 

A common myth.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees

>i don't think foundation has anything to do with mite control.  i do think that foundationless allows the bees to build the size and type of cells that they want to build.

And yet you are doing foundationless, not treating and having no Varroa issues...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 11:32:51 PM »

this is true.  i also have replaced every hive i had with those i have dug out or swarms i have captured.  i do have mites.  i do lose hives.  however, those that survive are the ones that i try to use for requeening, etc. 

foundationless = cheap  evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Finski
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 02:36:14 AM »

>I remember reading that most if not all feral hives were the first to be wiped out by varroa.  

A common myth.

Myth is that myth.

Michael, do you think that bee researhers are blind. You are looking world in the middle of cornfiels.

What do you exactly know about destiny of feral bees in didderent countiries?

Britain
USA
South Africa
New Zealand
Finland

All reports say that over 90% of feral bees died

They are coming back?
Not yeat on my life time
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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 02:45:30 AM »

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No country has lost its hives for varroa.

I think that honey yield is same as before because rest of bees collect the nectar from flowers.

There are some stage of resistancy in many countireis against varroa  but it is not at the level of needs of commercial beekeeping.


In Europe there are better bresistancy against varroa thab American - Russian bee has.

Like in New Zealand they started a victorious battle against varroa but now they are so silent.
No reports at all. Guys brought partly resistant bees from Germany and the breakout was near but ...

.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 06:38:50 AM »

>Michael, do you think that bee researhers are blind.

I have to wonder at times.  They say the feral bees are gone and I find them all the time.

>You are looking world in the middle of cornfiels.

Yes.  And the feral bees are here and the experts keep saying they are dead.

>What do you exactly know about destiny of feral bees in didderent countiries?

Only what they report on the many forums.  Feral bees have been dying from pesticides and lack of habitat and many things other than Varroa for a long time.
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Michael Bush
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czman11
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 09:04:53 AM »

I have to agree with Micheal on the reasons of disappearing feral bees. Recent studies suggests that pesticides are the main reason and scientist are working on making these pesticides bee friendly. It is not written in stone that feral bees are disappearing due to varroa mite infestations.

Also, suggesting that feral bees are swarms of domesticated bees may not be accurate. Domesticated swarms nesting outside a controlled hive are prone to die within first couple of years.

Foundationless makes sense:
Small or natural size cells may restrict necessary space for the mite to attach to pupae. I don't think that beehives with natural comes are completely mite free but it makes sense that it may greately reduce the mite count.
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2011, 09:33:42 AM »

Quote
Also, suggesting that feral bees are swarms of domesticated bees may not be accurate. Domesticated swarms nesting outside a controlled hive are prone to die within first couple of years.


ah...but define feral....

once that hive has survived outside the care of a beekeeper for a couple of years, is it not feral?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
czman11
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 11:33:11 AM »

kathyp: You are right, once they survive they would be considered feral (my guess). However, their survival may be depending on building their own come with reduced cell size. From observations of other beekeepers, bees will eventually reduce the size of cells to 4.6 - 4.8mm. That alone may be the factor for their survival. Anyway, I will give it a try. I lost a hive to varroa mites over winter in the past, so if this method reduces the chances of losing my bees without using chemicals than I'm all for it.
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Poppi
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 03:29:22 PM »

Michael I read your link to your site right after I made the post...   you had placed that link on another post.   I read the story about varroa and feral hives on one of the university sites...  don't remember which...  it's not that important to me because either way...  feral or "store bought"  I'm keeping bees.  I also agree that the law of nature says the fit will survive and that can cover a lot of territory.  So I definitely lean toward Kathyp and the idea of promoting those colonies that show the ability to withstand the pests and disease for whatever reason...  and it's those reasons that need to be understood.

Genetics plays a role but introducing "new treatments" all the time throws a variable into the mix and natural selection is not the result...  The two beekeepers I know who are helping me have 3 years and 5 years behind them.  The lady with 5 years has not even done a varroa mite count ever...  I told her I did and it was low...  what does that tell you about her bees if she never treats and hasn't even checked.  I'd say her bees are handling the varroa.  She is going to do a count and I'll be interested to see what she finds.  Also she does not have a problem with SHB.  The gentleman with 3 years has both and only treats with powdered sugar and the Freeman SHB trap.  I started with one of his nucs..  I put my hive in the sun...  no SHB!   so far...
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 03:38:07 PM »

understand that i am not against treatment.  i would rather see someone treat and succeed, than not treat and fail.  they become discouraged and a new beekeeper is lost.

what i don't like to see is people steered toward "all natural" and given the idea that if they just try this gimmick or another they will be successful.  i like treatment free as a goal, but most of us don't get there overnight and we don't get there without some effort and failure.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Poppi
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2011, 02:06:52 PM »

Yep kathyp    I agree, but to treat...   how and when and what with...   there are so many different answers in this forum that it's difficult to sort it all out.  I have decided I will go with the local bee club and what has worked for them.  Don't misunderstand me, this is a great place to get help and info and I have learned some great things, but what works in other areas of the country may not be what works best here.  A lot of beekeeping is universal from what I have seen so far, but some things get tweaked a little in different areas of the country.   Poppi
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deknow
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 04:53:26 PM »


Michael, do you think that bee researhers are blind.

In many cases they are...intentionally.  I've had a.top.researcher tell me that regressed ehb will not draw small comb without foundation...when I offered to show an example, my offer was declined.....so, blind to facts...on purpose.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 10:02:59 PM »

>I've had a.top.researcher tell me that regressed ehb will not draw small comb without foundation...when I offered to show an example, my offer was declined....

And I have made the same offer to several of them with that exact same response...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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wadehump
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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2011, 08:27:01 AM »

I am foundationless , i have mites , i have had rolleyes hives that die overwinter, i make splits and capture swarms and do cutouts . in six years i have went from 1 hive to 20 in that 6 years i have lost 20 but the 20 i have now are all from proven lines of mutts that will survive with NO treatments at all
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Finski
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2011, 03:42:54 PM »

I am foundationless , i have mites , i have had rolleyes hives that die overwinter, i make splits and capture swarms and do cutouts . in six years i have went from 1 hive to 20 in that 6 years i have lost 20 but the 20 i have now are all from proven lines of mutts that will survive with NO treatments at all

When your bees see your face = avatar, they die at that moment.  Cry
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