4.9 cell foundation

[RC]

I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

[VolunteerK9]

I have no idea other than the fact that some people buy SC and think that all their beekeeping woes will magically disappear. I think its just for people to have an understanding of the whole SC theory before they spend the money on it. I have a mixture of SC, LC and Natural in my hives working more towards all SC and Natural. Im not sold on it 100% but if it were to cut the mite load down even by a small percentage , then Ill keep using it. Plus, it get me a few more cells per frame.  I bought more last year and will do so this upcoming Spring for my nucs.

[Michael Bush]

>I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

They don't wan to explain regression.  I wondered the same thing and that's what sent me down the road of finding out what it was and why and how it was being used.  I wish they wouldn't do that.  There is nothing an experience beek knows that would make any difference over a newbee.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

[Country Heart]

>I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

There is nothing an experience beek knows that would make any difference over a newbee.

That's good to hear - especially since I'm a newbee preparing to take the small cell plunge.   

[VolunteerK9]

>I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

There is nothing an experience beek knows that would make any difference over a newbee.

That's good to hear - especially since I'm a newbee preparing to take the small cell plunge.   

What I do now, on nucs or any packages I get, is place 8 frames with SC and two foundationless frames on the outside (#1 & 10 spots of a 10 frame hive) for drone rearing.

[BjornBee]

I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

Some things are a mystery.

Like why ask about 4.9 foundation in the "natural and organic methods" beekeeping forum? There is nothing natural about it. And it don't make your hive organic.  

Natural to me is at least letting the bees draw comb without a pattern (foundationless systems) and not forcing them on large cell, or small cell.

I use both LC and SC. But I think folks need to keep it in perspective, and realize there is nothing natural about forcing bees on 4.9 full sheets of foundation.

Suppliers don't want to deal with the issue of having folks buy SC foundation, then having them call back after the bees do not follow the pattern. Many times, they do not automatically draw the 4.9 foundation. they make their own comb over the foundation. Many times, this comb is drone, and all different size comb, based on need, time of the year, etc.

It's not like they utilize some SC this year, then some more next year, until they have all SC comb. Having them draw bigger comb, or even drone comb over the SC foundation, does little to regress bees. There is more to it than that. Simply having bees draw what they want over the SC foundation, then pulling it out and doing it again next year, then doing it again, then after three years thinking your bees will be regressed, will not be what you thought. If they keep drawing comb over top the SC pattern and favoring their own, it does little to regress bees.

So constant filtering in SC to the right location, at the right time of the year, keeping honey out of the area, all makes huge impacts. You can burn through many SC sheets of foundation trying to get smaller bees. Been there, done that. Even with SC foundation, bees make what they want.

Myself, I favor natural foundationless systems.

[T Beek]

Agreed; Nothing 'natural or organic' about using foundation of any cell size.  Let your bees decide, if you dare

thomas

[wadehump]

Go foundationless the alllll natural way

[AliciaH]

I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

Isn't one of the reasons that if you already have bees on 5.4 and just throw in a bunch of 4.9 that you're asking for a mess?  It seems that in the podcasts I've listened to and some of the articles I've read that the recommendation is moving from 5.4 to 5.1, then down to 4.9.  Sounds like a lot of time and expense, not to mention having to remember what you have and where.

I guess that's why I'm liking the idea of foundationless (which I'm moving to in my brood boxes).  The bees can build what they think they need.

[VolunteerK9]

Isn't one of the reasons that if you already have bees on 5.4 and just throw in a bunch of 4.9 that you're asking for a mess?  It seems that in the podcasts I've listened to and some of the articles I've read that the recommendation is moving from 5.4 to 5.1, then down to 4.9.  Sounds like a lot of time and expense, not to mention having to remember what you have and where.

I guess that's why I'm liking the idea of foundationless (which I'm moving to in my brood boxes).  The bees can build what they think they need.

Placing a swarm on all 4.9 is a forced regression-basically leaving them no choice but to use the 4.9. Ive done it without any problems. The only problem I had will all natural cell was that I had (what I thought) was excessive amount of drone comb. So what I do know is place a sheet of 4.9 foundation in my frames and I cut about an inch or so  leaving the bottom of the frame empty leaving them room to build what they want in the empty space provided.

[T Beek]

In a foundationless system regular frame manipulations are even more necessary (for the beek) IMO.  With drone comb I've found the bees very cooperative in filling those cells w/ honey during a flow if I keep moving them up and out as they empty of bees.

thomas

[VolunteerK9]

In a foundationless system regular frame manipulations are even more necessary (for the beek) IMO.  With drone comb I've found the bees very cooperative in filling those cells w/ honey during a flow if I keep moving them up and out as they empty of bees.

thomas

Yup, I would have to agree-foundationless in principle is great but with the constant manipulations a bit more of a hassle for me.

And it seems at the end of the year, I end up with a lot of empty drawn drone comb frames and not enough of drawn brood comb frames.

[kathyp]

And it seems at the end of the year, I end up with a lot of empty drawn drone comb frames and not enough of drawn brood comb frames.

i wouldn't worry about that.  i stick whatever drawn frames i have wherever i need them.  the bees use them just fine.

[T Beek]

That's very true, bees don't mind drone comb a bit and they're well equipped to make any needed modifications and do so in short order.

thomas

[sterling]

That's very true, bees don't mind drone comb a bit and they're well equipped to make any needed modifications and do so in short order.

thomas

Will they modify drone cells into worker cells if you put the drone comb into the brood nest if they need to?

[T Beek]

Yes they will and in record time as needed

thomas