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Author Topic: 4.9 cell foundation  (Read 5313 times)
RC
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« on: August 08, 2011, 01:10:49 PM »

I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 02:08:37 PM »

I have no idea other than the fact that some people buy SC and think that all their beekeeping woes will magically disappear. I think its just for people to have an understanding of the whole SC theory before they spend the money on it. I have a mixture of SC, LC and Natural in my hives working more towards all SC and Natural. Im not sold on it 100% but if it were to cut the mite load down even by a small percentage , then Ill keep using it. Plus, it get me a few more cells per frame.  I bought more last year and will do so this upcoming Spring for my nucs.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 10:27:11 PM »

>I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

They don't wan to explain regression.  I wondered the same thing and that's what sent me down the road of finding out what it was and why and how it was being used.  I wish they wouldn't do that.  There is nothing an experience beek knows that would make any difference over a newbee.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 12:49:30 AM »

>I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

There is nothing an experience beek knows that would make any difference over a newbee.


That's good to hear - especially since I'm a newbee preparing to take the small cell plunge.   Smiley
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 08:30:02 AM »

>I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

There is nothing an experience beek knows that would make any difference over a newbee.


That's good to hear - especially since I'm a newbee preparing to take the small cell plunge.   Smiley

What I do now, on nucs or any packages I get, is place 8 frames with SC and two foundationless frames on the outside (#1 & 10 spots of a 10 frame hive) for drone rearing.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 09:30:00 AM »

I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

Some things are a mystery.

Like why ask about 4.9 foundation in the "natural and organic methods" beekeeping forum? There is nothing natural about it. And it don't make your hive organic.  grin

Natural to me is at least letting the bees draw comb without a pattern (foundationless systems) and not forcing them on large cell, or small cell.

I use both LC and SC. But I think folks need to keep it in perspective, and realize there is nothing natural about forcing bees on 4.9 full sheets of foundation.

Suppliers don't want to deal with the issue of having folks buy SC foundation, then having them call back after the bees do not follow the pattern. Many times, they do not automatically draw the 4.9 foundation. they make their own comb over the foundation. Many times, this comb is drone, and all different size comb, based on need, time of the year, etc.

It's not like they utilize some SC this year, then some more next year, until they have all SC comb. Having them draw bigger comb, or even drone comb over the SC foundation, does little to regress bees. There is more to it than that. Simply having bees draw what they want over the SC foundation, then pulling it out and doing it again next year, then doing it again, then after three years thinking your bees will be regressed, will not be what you thought. If they keep drawing comb over top the SC pattern and favoring their own, it does little to regress bees.

So constant filtering in SC to the right location, at the right time of the year, keeping honey out of the area, all makes huge impacts. You can burn through many SC sheets of foundation trying to get smaller bees. Been there, done that. Even with SC foundation, bees make what they want.

Myself, I favor natural foundationless systems.
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T Beek
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2011, 07:21:31 AM »

Agreed; Nothing 'natural or organic' about using foundation of any cell size.  Let your bees decide, if you dare grin

thomas
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 05:22:15 PM »

Go foundationless the alllll natural way
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AliciaH
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 01:47:11 PM »

I noticed that Mann Lake and Dadant both advise that only experienced beeks use small cell foundation. Why is this?

Isn't one of the reasons that if you already have bees on 5.4 and just throw in a bunch of 4.9 that you're asking for a mess?  It seems that in the podcasts I've listened to and some of the articles I've read that the recommendation is moving from 5.4 to 5.1, then down to 4.9.  Sounds like a lot of time and expense, not to mention having to remember what you have and where.

I guess that's why I'm liking the idea of foundationless (which I'm moving to in my brood boxes).  The bees can build what they think they need.
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2011, 04:17:18 PM »

Isn't one of the reasons that if you already have bees on 5.4 and just throw in a bunch of 4.9 that you're asking for a mess?  It seems that in the podcasts I've listened to and some of the articles I've read that the recommendation is moving from 5.4 to 5.1, then down to 4.9.  Sounds like a lot of time and expense, not to mention having to remember what you have and where.

I guess that's why I'm liking the idea of foundationless (which I'm moving to in my brood boxes).  The bees can build what they think they need.

Placing a swarm on all 4.9 is a forced regression-basically leaving them no choice but to use the 4.9. Ive done it without any problems. The only problem I had will all natural cell was that I had (what I thought) was excessive amount of drone comb. So what I do know is place a sheet of 4.9 foundation in my frames and I cut about an inch or so  leaving the bottom of the frame empty leaving them room to build what they want in the empty space provided.
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T Beek
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2011, 06:36:46 AM »

In a foundationless system regular frame manipulations are even more necessary (for the beek) IMO.  With drone comb I've found the bees very cooperative in filling those cells w/ honey during a flow if I keep moving them up and out as they empty of bees.

thomas
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2011, 02:28:25 PM »

In a foundationless system regular frame manipulations are even more necessary (for the beek) IMO.  With drone comb I've found the bees very cooperative in filling those cells w/ honey during a flow if I keep moving them up and out as they empty of bees.

thomas

Yup, I would have to agree-foundationless in principle is great but with the constant manipulations a bit more of a hassle for me.

And it seems at the end of the year, I end up with a lot of empty drawn drone comb frames and not enough of drawn brood comb frames.
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 02:49:35 PM »

Quote
And it seems at the end of the year, I end up with a lot of empty drawn drone comb frames and not enough of drawn brood comb frames.

i wouldn't worry about that.  i stick whatever drawn frames i have wherever i need them.  the bees use them just fine.
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 03:33:54 PM »

That's very true, bees don't mind drone comb a bit and they're well equipped to make any needed modifications Wink and do so in short order.

thomas
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sterling
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2011, 04:29:17 PM »

That's very true, bees don't mind drone comb a bit and they're well equipped to make any needed modifications Wink and do so in short order.

thomas

Will they modify drone cells into worker cells if you put the drone comb into the brood nest if they need to?
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T Beek
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2011, 08:15:54 AM »

Yes they will and in record time as needed cool

thomas
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Brother Dave
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2013, 01:10:34 AM »

I am using comb guides very little foundation. I have not culled comb yet so I have not really regressed my bees much. How many cells per inch is 4.9cm?


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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2013, 09:34:03 AM »

Maybe I am doing something wrong... because i dont "feel" as if I am being FORCED into excessive frame manipulations?  My bees dont like to draw out the two outside frames on the few hives I still have plastic in.. so with each inspection I rotate them in... I remove the side frame, slide each frame over as I inspect, and replace the side frame on the opposite side...  it SLOWLY rotates the frames through the box and insures they all get filled/used/attached at some point...    I Do nothing different with my foundation less. It doesnt mess up the brood chamber because it happens slowly enough that the bees that got moved one frame to the side are gone by the time I move it another frame to the side..  They are also more interested in attaching the bottom when the frames are in the center than if they are on the outside edges...   It's slow progression, but costs me nothing..   
   Drop a frame of foundation less into your hive full of plastic 5.4.. you will find that in the center of the brood nest they build 5.1..  If your going to force them to use frames of different sizes then you have to expect them to be a bit confused and build lots of different things, or even the wrong cells. Regression isn't as hard as people make it out to be if you let the BEES make the choice.

   A lot of people try to make things happen too fast..  just...  stop worrying about it. Let them make their own comb.. rotate in small or foundation less, or a combination.. as mentioned above.. at least give them a couple of frames where they can make their own choice and you will be surprised what they come up with.
   Once comb is started well I seldom end up with a mess. It DOES happen when starting NEW, but is generally not an issue to me to fix.. I chose to keep bees, because I like figuring out the problems and working with them.. If I didnt like it I wouldnt have them..

  If it makes you upset to the point of ranting about someone elses method, then maybe you shouldnt have bees..

   I get enough drama in life, I dont need to look for it or create it..    If comb needs straightened.. I straighten it. If Natural, or small cell  MIGHT make a small difference, i use it..  The bonus there is.. the bees seem to like it..   Every time I cut a queen cell out of the center of a frame to use in a nuc I smile.. thinking about how much fun that would be if I used plastic.. what i do works for me, and I am enjoying it...
   I have no argument if you use 10.1 mm cell size to make giant bees and treat your bees with gamma radiation to kill mites.. so why is it so important for you to convince me that small cell doesnt work? That regression doesnt work? That my methods are wrong?   RELAX! Shake your head and laugh if you wish, theres no point in getting angry.. If what I do amuses you.. then hey! Another bonus to what I do!!!!
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T Beek
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2013, 09:44:01 AM »

Oldmech; Not completely sure which (whom?) direction your pointing that toward but I applaud the content. applause applause applause
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2013, 06:34:52 PM »

Oldmech; Not completely sure which (whom?) direction your pointing that toward but I applaud the content. applause applause applause

   Sorry T.. wasnt really POINTED at anyone...  Just a conglomeration of pent up reading from multiple threads and sites that I refused myself the liberty of responding to.. Everything I was thinking sort of burst and it all landed there...     embarassed
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