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Author Topic: Adding queen ?'s  (Read 1290 times)
twintrades
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« on: July 31, 2011, 03:07:35 PM »

OK will adding a queen boost the hives productivity ?

i have a swarm/worker hive im thinking about aqqing a queen to as well as some brood if a friend is willing to give me some. Theyre just starting to fill out the foundation. i didnt find a queen or see a ball thet could contain a queen. I thought if i would add one they might get some getup and go.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2011, 03:44:52 PM »

i'm not sure i understand.  you have a hive that you know has no queen?  have you checked for eggs/larva?  if there is no queen, the hive will die.  if you add a queen to a hive that has one, they will fight and one or both will die.

the best thing to do if you are not sure is to add a frame of eggs and very young larvae.  then you check in a couple of days to see if they have started queen cells.  if they have, you need to decide whether you will allow them to raise their own queen, or you will need to buy a queen.  they can only raise their own if there are still drones around.

another thing you need to know if there is brood....is it worker or all drone.  if the hive has been queenless for a while, you could have developed laying workers.  in that case, there will be eggs and larvae, but they will not develop into workers and the hive will die.  they also will not start queen cells on your frame of eggs/larva and the hive will remain queenless and die.

you need someone with some experience to help you evaluate this hive.  there isn't much good weather left.

if you don't have someone around to look, upload some pictures of your frames to us.  we can try to help.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
twintrades
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 06:54:20 PM »

THere isnt any queen if there was she would have laid in the newly drawn out cells i would think. This is a new hive. New foundation. I just thought heck ill give it a go and if there isnt any improvment or time left ill throw it into a nuc and hope for the best. Or combine it with the othre hive. Mabey get a nuc and do a stacked nuc for the winter im not shure what to do yet.

I'm picking um my queen tonight or tomorrow.  Im hoping thet having the queen in there will get some of the othres to get going and fill out the foundation so she can start laying. as of now they seem listlis and unguided. ( just my opinon of them as of now.)
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AllenF
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2011, 07:10:04 PM »

Where did you get this swarm and how long have you had it?   
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twintrades
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2011, 08:31:01 PM »

Had it 1 week and its from a cranberry marsh. Guy with the queens isnt home troday so ill have to requeen tomorrow. And there hives have some foulbrood. SO he wont sell me a frame or two to put in with them.
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indypartridge
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 12:01:29 PM »

There isnt any queen if there was she would have laid in the newly drawn out cells i would think.
You've only had this swarm a week right? Typically, a queen stops laying several days before leaving with a swarm so that she can slim down to fly. If there's a queen, she may not have (re)started laying yet.

Quote from: kathyp
if you add a queen to a hive that has one, they will fight and one or both will die.
I rarely disagree with Kathy, but generally, if you add a queen to a queen-right colony, they won't fight. The bees will kill the intruder queen immediately.


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twintrades
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 01:58:53 PM »

well im going over there to give them some more syrup so mabey ill poop the lid again and take a nother look. The thing that made me belive there was a queen in there was that before i hived them i smelt a lemongrass oder coming form the bucket.
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D Semple
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2011, 02:48:00 PM »

well im going over there to give them some more syrup so mabey ill poop the lid again and take a nother look. The thing that made me belive there was a queen in there was that before i hived them i smelt a lemongrass oder coming form the bucket.

"mabey ill poop the lid again"       -       Ah, ah, don't see how that is going to help

" i smelt a lemongrass oder coming form the bucket"     -      I like my smelt with tartar sauce, but to each their own.


Lord I apologize   
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twintrades
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 04:48:26 PM »

HAha fast typeing witout checking anything is always funny ! I did Poop the lid. Ahem i mean pop grin and there fanning like mad anchord downd with there arses in the air. I just looked at them quick and again i saw a "clump" of bees so mabey i do have a queen ?  SO i just figured ill givem anothre week and see then. Id hate to buy a queen only to lose her. Were broke right now anywhey. so i just feed more syrup well see what hapens soon enuf. Mabey the hive will just fade away time will tell.

Btw Smelt are best with a lemon and dussledorf mustard !   rolleyes afro
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Tommyt
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 04:48:27 PM »

Quote
I like my smelt with tartar sauce, but to each their own.
I never smelt a smelt, like that smelt, ..smelt  .....Before shocked

as to the poop,I hope you find some eggs

Tommyt
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 05:08:38 PM »

take some window screen and put that hive over the other with screen between.  give this hive an upper entrance.  that way, if there is no queen the scent of the queen below should suppress laying workers.  they will also be ready to combine if you have no queen.  if there is one, the screen will keep the bees separated so there is no harm.

you can't just let a queenless hive sit.  bad things happen. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2011, 12:41:19 AM »

>THere isnt any queen if there was she would have laid in the newly drawn out cells i would think.

There is a lot of information missing about the history of this hive.  Is there capped brood?  Was there capped brood?  Have you ever seen eggs?  Young larvae?  Was it supposed to be queenright when you got it?  How long since you saw eggs or brood?

Myth:  If there is no brood there is no queen.
There are many reasons you might find a hive with no brood even though there is a queen. First, in my climate at least, from October to April there may or may not be brood because they stop in October and then raise little batches of brood with broodless periods in between. Second, some frugal bees will shut down brood rearing in a dearth. Third, a hive that has lost a queen and raised an emergency queen often is broodless because by the time the new queen has emerged, hardened, mated and started to lay 25 or more days have passed and all the brood has emerged. Fourth a hive can swarm and the new queen isn't laying yet. She won't be laying for probably at least three weeks after the hive swarmed. Many a beginner (or even a veteran) beekeeper has found a hive in this state, ordered a queen, introduced her and had her killed, ordered another queen, introduced her and had her killed and finally noticed there were eggs. Unmarked virgin queens are very hard to find even by the most experienced beekeeper. A frame of eggs and brood would have been a better insurance policy. That way if the hive is queenless they can raise one, and if they aren't it won't hurt anything and you'll know the answer to the question.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#nobroodnoqueen
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm
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Michael Bush
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D Semple
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2011, 09:12:58 AM »

Twin - a lot of great beekeepers have taken the time to answer you and all have given you the same exact same advice for this hive in 4 different threads on two different forums.

Kathy P - "the best thing to do if you are not sure is to add a frame of eggs and very young larvae".

JP - "consider combining them with another hive or putting them in a nuc with queen or frame with eggs".

Michael Bush - "A frame of eggs and brood would have been a better insurance policy. That way if the hive is queenless they can raise one, and if they aren't it won't hurt anything and you'll know the answer to the question."

If your really interested in saving these bees it's time time to go beg, borrow, or steal a frame of eggs and brood. If you can't get one from your other hive get on the phone and make some calls. I don't know any beekeeper that would turn down helping out a new guy in a spot. 

Good luck, hope you can save them.

Don

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twintrades
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 06:48:07 PM »

well the local club up here is spotty at best. And the only guy who would have helped me with no problems. just found out he has some foul brood, And dosnt want to give me any that my hurt the hive so i guess im up Sh00t creek with out a paddle
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 06:55:38 PM »

ok...well, we tried to give you some options but if they won't work for you i don't know what else to say. maybe next year will be better for you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
twintrades
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2011, 07:30:28 PM »

I have one other chance I'll see what happens in the next few days. If it's a no go I'll just combine the two like kathyp said. This yr was just a learning yr. And this 2nd hive was going to be killed any who. I'm trying but with limited fund's and resources I'm doin my best.
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2011, 07:41:31 PM »

I have one other chance I'll see what happens in the next few days. If it's a no go I'll just combine the two like kathyp said. This yr was just a learning yr. And this 2nd hive was going to be killed any who. I'm trying but with limited fund's and resources I'm doin my best.

No one is criticizing you for having limited funds or resources but I had rather have one decent hive than two iffy ones . To me it doesnt make any sense to keep throwing time or money in a hive like your descibing as your cranberry bees. I wouldnt buy a queen, frames of brood, etc in what sounds like to me a hive of a few rescued foragers that are on their last legs anyways. Combine them with your other one to boost their numbers and increase their chances of overwintering. I would say that living in Wisconsin, you are running out of time considering that a brood hatch cycle is 3 weeks. Build them up, then if they survive split in the spring and go from there. In the mean time, read, read and then read some more.
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kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2011, 07:57:37 PM »

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I'm trying but with limited fund's and resources I'm doin my best

ditto all of the above.  no one is cheaper than i, whether i have funds or not.  part of the learning experience is figuring out when to call a loss.  it's a hard one.  you are lucky that you have another hive so combining the two at least means you have saved the bees even if you didn't save the hive.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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