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Author Topic: Against better judgment ....  (Read 3764 times)
twintrades
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« on: June 19, 2011, 10:33:18 PM »

I know i should'nt do this but im going to do a cut out this week. Ive posted before about possibly doing this. Now im set on doing it. I know I know. I shouldent  do it. I have no hive experience. But There free, she cant afford an exterminator, and if i screw up the only thing ive lost is gas money. In the end she wants me to kill off what bee's / comb is left in there and seal it up.

Ok so here i go i have a small chainsaw to expand the hole. Im going to use a torch and drywall tool to heat up and cut the comb with. Then ill string the comb into empty frames. Trying to take out all i can. ( she wants to save the tree  rolleyes ) I would then try to use a Homade bee vac to suck up as many bees as i can. After taking out as much as i could i would dust the entire cavity with sevindust using a air compressor to blow it as far as i can up into the cavity. ( whereing my resperator of corse.)

Questions would be

1 how long should she expect the bees to hang around after i seal the tree up. ( was going to bring a chunk of 1/4 ply and screw it around the tree then silicone it shut.) ?? she is allergic to bees

2 Will it hurt the tree to have a void in it with honey comb and dying bees inside ??

3 How do you  get the hive into a car with all the bees in the air ? Should i after sealing up the hive just let the bees try to get into the hive box ?  the drive is 1 hr from my house so i would relly like to just get there do the cut out and then go home.
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iddee
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2011, 10:38:53 PM »

I was going to try to help you out, but when you mentioned Sevin dust, I decided it just wasn't something I wanted to be involved in. If you change your mind about that, I might try to help. We aren't here to poison bees.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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twintrades
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2011, 10:41:49 PM »

4 Also should i have a regular hive body ready ? Or would 2, 5 frame nucs be good enuf ?

5 Is there a better pesticide than sevindust ?

6 should i keep the bees i suck up in the vac seperate or try to dump them in the hive bodys ?

There are many more questions for shure but for now lets start with those. And feel free to chime in with your own 2 cents. Concerns advice ect. Just please dont jump in saying what an idiot i am. I know i should just leave it alone. i just dont want a hive to die with no one trying to salvage something. If i dont get the queen ill buy one from a local guy in town. And requeen the hive. Btw how long afer getting it in our yard should i wait to check it and re queen if neccesary. ? Lastly should i use a queen excluder to keep her in if i do get her home ? Or just letter ride ?
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twintrades
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2011, 10:45:32 PM »

I dont want to poison them either. Im not killing any im taking out. Just what i cant get in the tree hive. Shes allergic to them and dosnt want them to get back in and rebuild the hive. Im nbot shure of what else to say. If it was me i would leave it alone and just get swarms outa the tree. But with her being allergic she want's them "Gone."

If you have a better idea please share it. Im open to anything but i cant dig up the tree and take it home.  grin grin
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iddee
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2011, 11:01:26 PM »

Once the comb and queen is out, just let the hive set there until dark and all the bees will be in it. Move them at dark. Plug the tree with grout, foam, or whatever. Fill the void. Trying to bee proof is usually fruitless. If you must kill bees, do so with a non lasting spray, not a powder.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2011, 11:12:57 PM »

that tree is probably done for anyway.  take a look and see if you can tell her which direction it will fall when the next storm comes.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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twintrades
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2011, 11:45:38 PM »

Im shure the tree is done for. She just wont let it go.

What kinda spray would get up in the tree ?? Id rather use a short term spray.
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2011, 11:51:20 PM »

to be honest, this sounds like the kind of person i'd walk away from...there will always be bees...there will always be nuts.  better to wait for the bees and avoid the nuts. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
annette
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2011, 12:45:49 AM »

I disagree with what you said, about the only thing you have lost is the gas money. You are starting out beekeeping on the wrong foot, you should know what you are doing and helping the bees is the most important thing here.

The whole affair feels bad to me and I don't usually get involved with things like this, but I just feel badly about the whole thing.

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Jim 134
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 03:46:33 AM »

to be honest, this sounds like the kind of person i'd walk away from...there will always be bees...there will always be nuts.  better to wait for the bees and avoid the nuts.  

 NO I would not bee walking away I would bee RUNING
 We are here to help bees not to poison or kill bees
 And this whole thing is  Against my better judgment ....

   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 07:01:35 AM »

Being that you are completely new to bees, I strongly suggest you do not do this.  Beekeepers are not keeping bees to poison bees first of all.  Second, you don't have the required equipment and do not know what to look for while doing a cut out.  By starting out on the wrong foot, you are 100% setting yourself up for failure.  I understand the excitement about getting bees, but do yourself a favor and wait for a package or a nuc.  I have not seen the pictures, but I am assuming that since she wants the tree saved, you cannot cut the tree  in a way to access the colony completely.  A trap out would be the way to go, but being you don't have any equipment or eggs/brood, it would not work for you. 

If you really want to save the bees, look up people who do swarm removals in your area.  Maybe they would do it and let you help, but going at this alone will IMO not save any bees but bring death to the entire colony.  Just my .02
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Kris - Ulster County, NY
twintrades
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 07:41:36 AM »

If i dont try to do anything there going to die anyway. She is allergic to them. And will have a freind come over and bomb the tree.

I know i dont know what to look for in a cut out. Thats why im hoping to have some of you fine folk guid me. The only person in out group that has done a cut out in our area is a old gent. And he would rather not do any anymore. So the only other option is that i give it a go.

Im not out to posion bees either. I would not like to but in order to make her happy and safe id have to get rid of what i cant get to. Im sorry for those of you that dont understand. Im meaning no dissrepect, i guess i just think of bees differnt. I like em wantem but in the end there just bugs. And get exterminiated with everything else people are afraid of.

If i could get her to cut the tree down i would and im trying to get her to let go of it. If she will then i could just cut up as far as i would need to. Then cut the tree piece by piece.

Now would any one like to give me some pointers and hints of how to do it ? Trust me if i go over there and it looks bad ill walk away.
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deknow
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 08:02:16 AM »

without experience you are more likely than not to rile the bees up and make them upset.  if she is allergic and gets stung while (or even a month later...even if it is yellowjackets).
there are so many problems with the situation, and you are not prepared.
deknow
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2011, 09:41:23 AM »

We really do want to help, but don't want you to waste your time... I'll point out just a few little things that you may not realize and will make what you are thinking of completely pointless....

The cavity that the bees are living in is probably at least 3 feet of the trunk of that tree/branch.  If you want to get that comb out, it is almost impossible to get out without opening up that entire section.  That would essentially destroy the tree.

If you don't open up the entire section, you'll be grasping at handfuls of the comb from the bottom (or top) essentially destroying the hive.  It won't just pop out nicely.  You'll end up with a sticky mess of bees, comb, brood, and honey.  And if you try any heating with a blowtorch...well that will wreck the comb and the bees anyway.

Vacuuming will only get a few bees on the edge of the hive...once you start getting into the hive, all the bees will bunch up as far away as possible from you and you won't be able to vacuum them anyway.

They're going to die either way, the only difference is you'll have spent 3 hours plus 2 on the road and 6 or more gallons of gas for a handful of worthless bees because you'll never get the queen.

I know that you really want the bees, but I would advise you to heed the advise of very experienced beekeepers (some of them have been beekeeping since the hills were formed Cheesy, and others have written books on it) who have seen almost every situation in the book.

But if you still think that you can prove us wrong and you somehow succeed...I'll be the first to say "Great job!!"  Wink.

Rick
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David McLeod
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2011, 09:45:23 AM »

My $0.02. Do not touch this job with your worst enemies ten foot pole. Nothing but trouble from the get. First off it is in a tree which is always ten times worse than in a structure. Structures can be disassembled and reassembled, trees cannot. Structures have known and predictable cavities trees do not. Structures are not living creatures that die when you cut them nor does a simple cutout in a structure usually involve a support member and risk the collapse of the structure. Almost all tree cutouts do involve either the main support member (trunk) or a large portion of it's mass (large limbs). That's just dealing with a tree cutout.
Now you have the real danger. An unknowing and unreasonable human. This lady is entirely in the wrong IMO just wanting them gone no matter what. Believe me when I say that I speak to hundreds of people just like her. This foolish woman is looking for a fool that will do as she wants based on her fears rather than seek out professional services. I will not work for idiots as almost always they are just to dumb to understand the services I provide and will blame me for their own stupidity.
This is the kind of idiot that will completely discredit the sound advice given to her by a professional like myself. Mainly because she can't believe I have the balls to actually ask for a fee my services, somehow this lazy grasshopper has got the idea that all things out the ordinary must be done for free. As a result the minute you set foot on her property she will own you. You are providing her labor at no cost, slavery by definition. God forbid the poor tree dies, it will be all your fault.
So she can't afford a professional, tough titty. Not your fault or responsibility. I don't practice medicine or law though I could if you buy into the while can't afford it sob story. I get those kind of folks off my phone as fast as possible. An old friend had a phrase that fits "you can't fix stupid".
I shouldn't even get into the application of a pesticide but I will. So your not charging, that clears you with the state but not from liability. When the ambulance chaser serves you at least you won't face administrative fines and code violations justbthe loss of everything that you have. Never ever apply a product without first obtaining the training, licensing and liability coverage that will separate your professional from your private assets. You may think "good samaritan" applies but it does not. What will apply is her insurance,if she even has any, and they in turn shall apply the full court press to you.
Oh, but it's for the bees you say. I say horse apples! It's all about you, you just can't wait to "save the bees", "show your skill/knowledge/compassion/fill in the blank". Unless your catholic and have an inside shot in Rome they ain't giving out sainthoods these days. Walk away, bees are free your labor should never be. This ain't the very last colony of bees on the planet a better one will be along in a minute.
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2011, 10:00:21 AM »

Im going to use a torch and drywall tool to heat up and cut the comb with.
huh
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2011, 10:43:05 AM »

I don't think your going to listen but I will chime in don't do it.

The bees will not die unless they are at her front door she is not going to do squat people are lazy she has a tree in her yard with the center rotted out if that did not motivate her to do something then I don't know what will and not enough money to call a exterminator. If you don't act a idiot and tell her how to kill bees she will not know and if they do anything they will just spray wasp spray at it. If you want my true thought on that I hope the hive is African kick the holy crap out of them after they have sprayed and most likely the hive will live threw the spray and they will leave it alone till next year.

Next your are doing your self and all the rest of us a disservice by even discussing it with out talking about her paying you. I had one last weekend in the same town I picked up that log in told me it was a exposed colony under the eve they had already exposed the hive old lady rooked me over the phone into 100 buck for a exposed hive. I get there and I see 3 pound of bees hanging from the eve look in the attic comb three foot in and a space I would have to lay down to remove it from. Told the old lady if I had to go in that attic it was going to have to be more she says what 200 I feel bad for her and the old man so I say yeah. Old man then tells me its to darn much that another beekeeper said 75 mind you one that never showed up. So every time you talk to someone about doing it for free you hurt us all. So you see no can ever make everyone happy it was 50 miles from my house so that would have been 50 bucks in gas and then he wanted me to crawl in his attic to get them out I hope them bees stink him to death. I could not care what the hell he does with them wants me to crawl around a 200 degree attic for 50 buck I would have rather mugged his butt lite him on fire. Yeah he ticked me off the more I think about it the more ticked I can get.

Now are you willing to buy a queen?
If not you are going to kill the hive I have done it if they go without a queen for the next month they will not build up fast enough and will die, you will have nothing.

I will post a pic of that hive on another thread. I had never seen that many bees.


 
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caticind
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2011, 11:18:35 AM »

Can't agree strongly enough with the advice you are receiving above.  If this is against your better judgment, then why on earth are you doing it?

The plan you've laid out reveals that you do not know enough yet about bees or trees to successfully pull this off.  
The likeliest results include at least one and possibly all of the following:

1)  You get the "better judgment" stung right out of you. (If I recall you are using homemade gear including a veil that does not attach to your jacket.  Are you filled with pleasant anticipation at the thought of being stung in the eye?)

2) You destroy most of the comb and kill most of the bees.  (Since your beevac is also homemade, it is unlikely to work perfectly the first time.  The most common malfunction is that the suction is too strong and you smear your bees into a fine paste.  Also, there is no occasion on which a torch is a good way to cut combs.)

3)  You will poison some fraction of the remaining bees. (Thus earning the general enmity of the experienced keepers on this forum who you were probably counting on to advise you about how to keep the bees you get out of the tree alive in your homebrew equipment.)

4)  But you will likely not get all of them, nor seal the tree completely, so the colony will persist for sometime and/or the honey left inside the tree will attract scavengers and potentially a new colony of bees.  (Thus earning the enmity of the lady who wanted them gone and who you were hoping to "help".  )

5)  While you make the hive as mad as possible, the bee-phobic lady may well get stung.  (Earning you not only enmity but also potentially bankrupting medical liability if she's actually allergic.)

6) In the process of cutting the tree, you will most likely kill it.  (Repeat enmity and property damage liability, since she's so attached to the tree.)

7) And that's only if you are lucky enough not to accidentally drop it in an uncontrolled manner onto whatever or whoever is underneath.  (If there's a sizeable colony in there, then this tree is rotted out and hollow.  How thick is the remaining ring of wood?  Do you really think you can cut away one side of that cavity and have the tree still hold up?  Maybe you can, but you won't know until you do it.  What's under the tree?  Repeat enmity, liability, and add potential wrongful death lawsuit.)

Whatever good you think you are going to do is really and truly outweighed by the likely ills.  Attempting to execute this kind of hare-brained plan gives beekeepers a bad name (and that's before we even get to the bit about doing it for free).  

I advise you stop now, before you give yourself a bad name.
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2011, 11:46:58 AM »

one last thought....there are occasions when the bees need to be killed.  sometimes there is no option, sad as that might be.  that's a call that the lady needs to make with the help of good council.  that's not a call that you, the inexperienced person, should make or advise on.  she also needs the advice of an arborist. 

the best thing you could do for her is see if there is someone who knows how, and is willing to do, a trap out. advise her to have the tree looked at.

she doesn't want to pay for anything and that should be a big red flag.  i have done things for free because i know that the farmer/land owner doesn't have much.  that's my call and it's usually easy outbuildings.  when someone asks me to do something for free, that sets off my alarms.  those are usually not the people you want to deal with.

get your stuff together and put a swarm catch ad up on craigs list.  easiest way to get free bees.  while you are waiting for that call, read and watch everything in the removal section.  that's not a replacement for hands on, but it's a start.  ask some of the people in your bee club if they will take you along for cutouts or swarm catches.  as if they will use you as backup for swarm catches.  most years i get more calls than i can take and i really appreciate having someone who will take the ones i can't.

and that's all i have to say about that.......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
jhs494
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2011, 12:06:19 PM »

Please do an internet search for a beekeeping organization in your area. Someone locally will usually be willing to help.

Going by your profile information there is an Oneida County Beekeepers Organization. The contact name is listed for them if you google search it.

There you may find someone perhaps better equipped to handle this removal and maybe you can assist them and get your feet wet that way.

Local clubs are great resources.

Good Luck!

Joe
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 12:16:44 PM by jhs494 » Logged

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