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Author Topic: UGH!!! Laying worker!  (Read 2654 times)
Wits End
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« on: June 07, 2011, 06:46:20 PM »

Has no one found a cure for laying worker? I watched one of my spring swarms in a five frame nuc with sugar water for several weeks. When they had all five frames drawn I put them in a 10 frame hive body. Today the same frames were drawn and dry. Some spotty drone brood and some pissy bees. I saw dark larvae. not white like most. If I put a frame of eggs in there will they just let them do their thing or will they try to make a real Queen? If I put a queen cell in there they will kill it. If I put a new Queen in they are gonna give her a tough time. So what? I know you guys can help!
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Jeff and Kellie Houston
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 06:58:04 PM »

Dark larvae?? You might have a bigger problem than laying workers. Can you describe it in more detail or give us a pic?

Scott
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 08:02:08 PM »

Scott they don't look diseased or any thing. They almost look like tiny rolly pollies. Or is that a Mississippi term? I will get a pic or video tomorrow and let you see. Of course it was around 100 degrees and I was sweating like a pig after 9 other hives. I've only had a laying worker once before but after trying everything I could it was a lost cause.
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Jeff and Kellie Houston
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 09:50:51 PM »

I would try giving them a frame of open brood with no adhering bees.  The brood gives off pheromones that should slow down the laying workers and make them amenable to accepting a new queen a couple days later.  If that doesn't work or you don't want to take a chance of wasting a queen, do a newspaper combine with a good queenrite colony and that will cure the situation and you can make a split to get you numbers back if that is important to you.  A few strong colonies make a lot more honey than more weak hives. 
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 06:26:30 AM »

>Has no one found a cure for laying worker?

Yes.  A frame of eggs and open brood every week for three weeks.  I wish I had a dollar for every time I say that...
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 10:03:13 AM »

>Has no one found a cure for laying worker?

Yes.  A frame of eggs and open brood every week for three weeks.  I wish I had a dollar for every time I say that...


Michael, an eDollar is on the way!

...DOUG
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 10:09:01 AM »

if you don't want to rob your other hive every week, just shake those bees out and let them join other hives.  it's the easiest way to deal with them.
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 05:03:40 PM »

I have 8 hives so I am headed to the bee yard right now to try mr. Bush' method.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 05:17:49 PM »

if you don't want to rob your other hive every week, just shake those bees out and let them join other hives.  it's the easiest way to deal with them.

kathyp, how does this work exactly? Just shake all the bees from the hive and remove the box? Then the shaken bees simply join another nearby hive?

-Liz
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 05:32:39 PM »

if you don't want to rob your other hive every week, just shake those bees out and let them join other hives.  it's the easiest way to deal with them.

kathyp, how does this work exactly? Just shake all the bees from the hive and remove the box? Then the shaken bees simply join another nearby hive?

-Liz

Yes, but!  This is a last resort method to dealing with laying workers, or one that you use if you don't mind losing a hive.  Because you are giving up on that hive for the year in order to solve the problem quickly.
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 05:41:33 PM »

Okay! Put a frame of young brood in the queenless hive from the super healthy hive next to it. Sorry Scott I forgot to take the video camera. The frames in the weak hive have black pierco foundation in them so I think what I was seeing was just a glint of nectar in some frames and not dark larvae. The hives are in the shade this time of day so its hard to tell unless you walk out into the sunlight. Stay tuned!
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 06:38:57 PM »

you are going to have to put a frame in each week.  it's not just one frame and forget it.  by the time you catch a laying worker hive a lot of times it's not worth saving anyway.  that's your call.  i'd rather dump the hive and let the bees strengthen other hives rather than rob from other hives to save a really weak hive.

up to you and depends on what you have...and what you want.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 08:03:52 PM »

you are going to have to put a frame in each week.  it's not just one frame and forget it.  by the time you catch a laying worker hive a lot of times it's not worth saving anyway.  that's your call.  i'd rather dump the hive and let the bees strengthen other hives rather than rob from other hives to save a really weak hive.


This is my dilemma. I've got four limping hives that are sucking larva resources from my few strong hives. Every week I question whether or not it's worth this transfer of resources. Maybe I'll experiment...

If I decide to shake the bees from the laying worker hive, do I shake them in front of the hive I want them to strengthen? 

-Liz
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 08:16:43 PM »

you can.  i take mine away because then the bees fly back toward the other hives (mine are all together) and there are fewer trying to climb right back into what i shook.  i also take an empty box and towel out so that as i clear a frame, i can put it in the empty and cover the box.  when i'm done, i just pick up the boxes and put them away.  fortunately, i have only had to do it a couple of times.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 01:15:02 AM »

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

There are few solutions as universal in their application and their success than adding a frame of open brood every week for three weeks. It is a virtual panacea for any queen issues. It gives the bees the pheromones to suppress laying workers. It gives them more workers coming in during a period where there is no laying queen. It does not interfere if there is a virgin queen. It gives them the resources to rear a queen. It is virtually foolproof and does not require finding a queen or seeing eggs. If you have any issue with queenrightness, no brood, worried that there is no queen, this is the simple solution that requires no worrying, no waiting, no hoping. You just give them what they need to resolve the situation. If you have any doubts about the queenrightness of a hive, give them some open brood and sleep well. Repeat once a week for two more weeks if you still aren't sure. By then things will be fine.

If you are afraid of transferring the queen from the queenright hive, because you are not good at finding queens, then shake or brush all the bees off before you give it to them.

If you are concerned about taking eggs from another new package or small colony, keep in mind that bees have little invested in eggs and the queen can lay far more eggs than a small colony can warm, feed and raise. Taking a frame of eggs from a small struggling new hive and swapping it for an empty comb or any drawn comb will have little impact on the donor colony and may save the recipient if they are indeed queenless. If the recipient didn't need a queen it will fill in the gap while the new queen gets mated and not interfere with things.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2011, 06:26:06 AM »

The panacea for almost all beekeepers who are in a sort of panic about queenlessness...

Once each week for three straight weeks: Heed Michael Bush's seasoned, informed, even-toned, well-reasoned advice. You must ask the same questions each week, and Michael Bush must respond to it the same way every single week for three straight weeks. By the end of the third week, things will be right again. I know, it seems like a pain, but it works. Everything works, if you let it.

-Liz

P.S. I have to say that there are a number of seasoned, informed, etc. beekeepers on this forum (like kathyp and others) whom I also admire. A lot. I don't mean for this post to minimize my respect for them...seriously. Thanks to everyone.
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2011, 07:30:40 AM »

>You must ask the same questions each week, and Michael Bush must respond to it the same way every single week for three straight weeks.

Now I understand...
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2011, 10:04:55 AM »

Quote
I have to say that there are a number of seasoned, informed, etc. beekeepers on this forum (like kathyp and others) whom I also admire.

the nice thing about this site is that you will get lots of ideas and you can pick the ones that work for you.  if what you do doesn't work, you have other things to try.  there are many on here more experienced than i, and if you have to choose a position default to theirs.  grin  what i have learned over these last years either came from my own mistakes, experimentation, or, more likely...these guys!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2011, 11:14:32 AM »

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but...

This is my second year on this site and I am beginning to see how you wonderfully patient people answer the same questions over and over and over.  Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You are helping a lot of beekps.

And the info on this thread helped me.  I have a suspected queenless hive.  I put in one frame of eggs and was distressed when at the end of 7 days I didn't have a queen cell.  So I put in a second frame Tuesday, but now I know I will have to do a third, if I don't see eggs or a queen cell on next week's inspection.  I probably wouldn't have tried a third time.

Linda D
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2011, 12:30:37 PM »

Linda,

Keep in mind that if your suspected queenless hive continues not to build queen cells, the most likely reason is because they are not actually queenless.  The eggs and brood still help the hive, but no queen cells doesn't mean failure - just more information for you as you try to figure out what's going on.

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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2011, 10:44:36 PM »

Yes, Caticind, I realize that is a possibility and am hoping that I find eggs/larva next time instead of a queen cell.  Just sorry the hive was without a laying queen for the past couple of weeks as the flow is on and there won't be as many girls as I would have liked producing honey for ME in the coming weeks.  I am a real slave drive. evil
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« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2011, 07:34:42 AM »

I really appreciate the help from ALL of you. It all makes sense for one scenario or another. Mr Bush's plan made sense for my current situation. But I am still considering the shake and combine answers. My Bee yard is only across the road from my house. All nine hives are relatively close to each other. And I am working 6 days a week at my full time job plus taking care of an aging Mom and a daughter and 2 grands whose husband and father is in Texas fighting those fires. I have lined up my 3 donor hives with the most favored bees in the last 2 so if I do get a queen and renewed hive they will be from another good hive.(My definition of good)
Thanks and you can feel free to keep this thread going because I learn a lot from you guys and I will report back each wednesday at hive check time.
P.S all we are missing here is John Seaborn and the Fat Bee Man!
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Jeff and Kellie Houston
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« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2011, 09:40:02 AM »

So much depends on location and time of year.  I've used kathyp's method of dumping and MB's method of adding brood for three weeks, both successfully but at diferent times of year.

thomas
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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2011, 10:05:23 AM »

Quote
So much depends on location and time of year.


very true.  i have a short season so trying to get a weak hive going again is sometimes not worth the time..+ i have an intentionally small bee yard so the loss of one hive does not make me feel bad.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2011, 10:09:24 AM »

So much depends on location and time of year.  I've used kathyp's method of dumping and MB's method of adding brood for three weeks, both successfully but at diferent times of year.
thomas

So you mean that you have successfully  used brood addition in the Spring and shakeout in the Fall?
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« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2011, 10:58:53 AM »

And I've successfully used a queen cell to right a laying worker hive.  Yup, all the methods will work some of the time.  And every method has a time.

A time for brood, a time to shake.  A time to feed, and a time not to feed. We could re-write Ecclesiastes for beekeepers.

Too often one method gets universally applied and when it fails people complain that it doesn't work. Some methods work better for some people, some worse. It isn't that any method is better or worse(ok, some are!), they just all need to be used properly in the correct context.

Rick
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2011, 11:59:25 AM »

It isn't that any method is better or worse(ok, some are!), they just all need to be used properly in the correct context.
Rick

So what is the correct context for using a queen cell to fix a laying worker problem?   And just as important.... when would it NOT work?
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« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2011, 12:28:09 PM »

So what is the correct context for using a queen cell to fix a laying worker problem?   And just as important.... when would it NOT work?

With laying workers, nothing is ever guaranteed.

It would NOT work if you don't have any queen cells or access to them.  But if you do,  you also have a frame of brood, and you want to try to save the hive, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try both.
It would also not work if you aren't interested in saving the hive as it is and would rather dump and split.

Laying workers in the fall are pointless to try to save.

There aren't any rules as far as these things go.  It all depends on your preferences and applying some logic to the situation.
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« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2011, 01:13:01 PM »

  But if you do,  you also have a frame of brood, and you want to try to save the hive, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try both.

That's true.  They are really the same thing, except that in one case one of the eggs is further down the path to being a queen.  But I was thinking that putting a queen cell into a laying worker situation would probably just result in the queen cell being torn down, since the hive thinks it already has a queen.  It's only after the open brood pheromone makes the laying workers stop laying that the hive figures out it needs to raise a queen.

I guess the real question is, why did a queen cell work for you?  What were the circumstances when you did it?  Did you put the queen cell at some distance from the brood nest?
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« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2011, 03:50:49 PM »

[quote author=FRAMEshift link=topic=33355.msg274671#msg274671

I guess the real question is, why did a queen cell work for you?  What were the circumstances when you did it?  Did you put the queen cell at some distance from the brood nest?
[/quote]

No idea.  First hive, second year.  Fairly early spring.  I only knew about the laying worker because all of the drones.  They kept trying to raise a drag queen.  They had a laying worker for at least 3 weeks (queenless for 4+?)

I begged a split from my mentor, and he also found some queen cells in that hive.  I was planning on getting the split going, then shaking all the bees through a queen excluder to get rid of the drones, there were that many.  I stuck 2 queen cells between frames at the top of the 2 box hive, after a generous spray on the cells and in the hive with HoneyBHealthy syrup for smell. 

I later, couldn't tell if the queen cells were successful, they were open.  I assumed failure (since, after all, I read that it was almost impossible to fix a laying worker hive!!) and was halfway through shaking them out when suddenly I saw a queen walking around!  I double checked the frames, and there were good eggs.  AAUGGHH!

I put everything back together and put the queen back, but by that time they decided it was all her fault, killed her, and successfully raised another queen from her eggs. (and set them back another 4 weeks!)

So when people tell me that there isn't a good way to fix things, I say why not try, and don't assume failure. 
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2011, 12:35:03 AM »

>So what is the correct context for using a queen cell to fix a laying worker problem?   And just as important.... when would it NOT work?

I often put queen cells in laying worker hives and it sometimes works.  I don't know why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.  Maybe it depends on how long they have been queenless.
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2011, 06:53:13 PM »

Here is some advice.....

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/badbeekeeping.html

Good luck!
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« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2011, 09:30:35 PM »

Thanks! That was some good reading. Larry
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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2011, 07:16:52 PM »

Update. I placed another frame of brood in Queenless hive today. I saw what could have been a queen cell at the bottom of the frame I put in last week (I didn't pull it out). I hope they aren't in swarm mode! I will take a closer look this weekend. My grandson was calling me back to the house so I was working in a hurry. Turns out he wanted to show me he learned how to swim. I had to go through 2 hives to get the brood. First hive had several frames of brown caps and about 4 or 5 frames of completely filled honey under a honey super. I am going to pull some of that this weekend too and put in some empty foundation. Honey super on second donor hive was about full. Found a good frame of open brood in that one. Looks like I will be pulling some honey off this weekend! I can't wait!
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