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Author Topic: Feeding: Sugar Water with Essential Oils?  (Read 4017 times)
rail
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« on: May 15, 2011, 11:27:53 AM »

Any advantages to adding lemongrass oil or spearmint oil to sugar water for feeding a new package?

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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 12:00:57 PM »

The advantages are it speed consumption, does not allow it to forment as quick, and it cleans the bees digestive track.

Studies have shown that Honey Bee Healthy or Pro Health are just as effective against nosema as antibiotics.

I use pro health on my hives.
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Finski
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2011, 03:00:49 PM »

.
It makes no advantage. Nosema is not a summer problem.

Give sugar so that bees take it in 24 hours. So it does not ferment.
If bees get nectar from nature, syrup does not help after that, when bees get some stores in combs.
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2011, 05:12:41 PM »

Make sure you use an emulsifier such as lecithin,  or there is a risk that the pure oil left at the end can be hazardous to the bees.
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2011, 05:44:28 PM »

I've put a few drops of LGO, Peppermint extract, and Anise extract in their feed for about a year, and I get different results.  I've had them ignore it, and I've had it where I opened the jar and turned around to get the syrup bottle they would get in the jar and drown a half dozen before I turned back.  They seem to love the smell, I can't tell you if they like the taste.
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AliciaH
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2011, 06:13:48 PM »

Spearmint Oil is one of the ways to combat tracheal mites, too.
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The Bix
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2011, 07:55:44 PM »

I use a combination of lemongrass oil, spearmint oil and thyme oil in the 1:1 syrup.
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 02:33:37 PM »

I usually put a drop of Lemongrass or Peppermint oil in the syrup. My bees seem to take more of it in the spring than they do of the plain syrup.
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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 03:43:49 PM »

.
Where have you got your recipes?
Have you seen any researches about usefulness of these stuffs?

Thymol has used at least 50 years as " good for everythin


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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2011, 04:45:15 PM »

.
Where have you got your recipes?
Have you seen any researches about usefulness of these stuffs?

I got my recipe from a commercial beekeeper here in Colorado who runs several hundred beehives.  He has done alcohol washes regularly to determine the effectiveness of mite control specifically with regard to the thymol, and has had good success...as in never lost a hive to varroa mites he's given the thymol.

I have not read much research on the subject, don't have the time.  I am a new beekeeper and have chosen to lean on the depth of his experience and so far I haven't lost of hive due to varroa either.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 12:41:56 AM »

The upside is it's an antimicrobial which means it will kill Nosema.  The downside is it's a antimicrobial which means it will kill the healthy bacteria in the bees' gut and in the pollen that needs to ferment in order to be digestible.  The other downside is a "feed stimulant" also acts as a "robbing stimulant".
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Finski
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 12:47:20 AM »

.
Varroa is not handled by feeding thymol syrup. It is sure.
Thymol is gasified.


Very strange if a professional beekeeper has not lost any hive to varroa.
I have not met such a Ironman.

Read Maarec disease control letters. USA has great beekeeping universities. Use their knowledge.  but Europe is ahead in varroa controlling.
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Finski
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2011, 12:56:47 AM »

The upside is it's an antimicrobial which means it will kill Nosema.  The downside is it's a antimicrobial which means it will kill the healthy bacteria in the bees' gut and in the pollen that needs to ferment in order to be digestible.  The other downside is a "feed stimulant" also acts as a "robbing stimulant".

but what feeding we are talking about?

Winter feeding is its own question.

Feeding in summer starwing bees or to get  combs cheap, is one question. Never use essential oils in summer when you are going to get honey from hives.

Disease control is own serious question.

Someone says something but do you really understood corectly that?


I know beekeepers who has never problems. I do not trust them.
.

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Tommyt
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 06:51:32 AM »

Apple Cider Vinegar Huh Anyone


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Hemlock
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2011, 08:55:34 AM »

The upside is it's an antimicrobial which means it will kill Nosema.  The downside is it's a antimicrobial which means it will kill the healthy bacteria in the bees' gut and in the pollen that needs to ferment in order to be digestible.

Michael,
Would you say the same thing about Apple Cider Vinegar?

Tommyt,
I use ACV all Spring & Fall but not so much in Summer except for with newly hived packages.  It extends the life of the syrup and seems to aid against Nosema.  I currently recommend it to everyone  (sans, maybe, what MB has to say about it...)
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Finski
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 09:29:52 AM »

Apple Cider Vinegar Huh Anyone


Tommyt

Why?

Once I feeded home wine that in drunk bees accept a new queen. When their head cleared, they killed the queen.

Bees were really drunk. When they tried to fly into upper entrrance hole, many collided against the wall.

Mere syrup is best summer drink to bees.
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 11:33:49 AM »

Finski,

The Cider is not 'Hard' cider.  It is not alcoholic it's a vinegar instead.  I understand it's pH is more on par with the bees and it keeps the mold out of syrup.  It is suppose to aid the bees against Nosema as well.

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AliciaH
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2011, 11:37:11 AM »

How much ACV for a gallon of syrup?
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Finski
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 12:52:25 PM »

Finski,

The Cider is not 'Hard' cider.  It is not alcoholic it's a vinegar instead.  I understand it's pH is more on par with the bees and it keeps the mold out of syrup.  It is suppose to aid the bees against Nosema as well.



That is magic, not beekeeping.

Syrup make no food substrate to mold if it is clean.  I have studied how to avoid nosema and it does not exist in those stuffs.


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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 01:02:19 PM »

.
Research
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2008/04/m07071/m07071.html

Received 16 July 2007 - Revised 18 January 2008 - Accepted 4 March 2008 - Published online 25 June 2008

Abstract - The potential of some natural compounds (thymol, vetiver essential oil, lysozyme, resveratrol) for the control of nosema infection in honeybees was evaluated. A first trial aimed at screening substances, in candy preparations, on the basis of their toxicity to honeybees and bees' dietary preferences. None of the tested substances showed an increased bee mortality or decreased bee preference, and were therefore considered suitable for further testing. In the second trial the effects of the natural compounds on nosema diseased honeybees were evaluated: bees were individually dosed with nosema spores and fed candies prepared with the screened substances. The results showed that bees fed with thymol and resveratrol candies had significantly lower infection rates, and bees supplied with resveratrol prepared candy also lived significantly longer. We suggest that thymol and resveratrol could be useful in alternative strategies for the control of nosema disease.


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Finski
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 01:06:48 PM »

.
More about nosema

http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/Mussen/beebriefs/Nosema_Disease.pdf
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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 01:57:22 PM »

Quote from:  link=topic=32929.msg270567#msg270567 date=1305646631
How much ACV for a gallon of syrup?


AliciaH,
I use 1 tablespoon of ACV per gallon of syrup but i know people that use 2 tablespoons per gallon.  Bragg's ACV has all the good stuff still in it.  Store brands tend to filter a lot of that out.

If you do a search here you'll likely get a bunch more information that will explain it.  Been using it since 2009.  Mostly in fall when the syrup gets stored in the hive for the bees to consume all Winter.  This is the first year i've not used Fumagilin and that includes the packaged bees. 

Finski,
Not magic but observation. 

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2011, 01:33:04 AM »

>Michael, Would you say the same thing about Apple Cider Vinegar?

I know of no studies on cider vinegar and Nosema (there are some on lemongrass essential oil), but the pH of syrup with cider vinegar would be higher than syrup and less conducive to the reproduction of Nosema.  There are studies on  what pH Nosema reproduces at best and the pH of sugar syrup is exactly perfect for Nosema reproduction.  While honey is more acidic.  I would likely keep the Nosema reproduction down.  If that would prevent or cure Nosema, I don't know.  But feeding syrup or honey or anything with sugar in it will clear up Nosema...


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Michael Bush
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Finski
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2011, 05:53:29 AM »

.  But feeding syrup or honey or anything with sugar in it will clear up Nosema...




I have not met this reading before and I have read  a lot of nosema.
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2011, 08:35:01 AM »

...But feeding syrup or honey or anything with sugar in it will clear up Nosema...

Thanks
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2011, 10:14:27 AM »


 but the pH of syrup with cider vinegar would be higher than syrup

I'm pretty sure you meant that the pH with ACV would be lower than syrup
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2011, 10:26:24 AM »

The upside is it's an antimicrobial which means it will kill Nosema.  The downside is it's a antimicrobial which means it will kill the healthy bacteria in the bees' gut and in the pollen that needs to ferment in order to be digestible.  The other downside is a "feed stimulant" also acts as a "robbing stimulant".

I agree.

And it also is a foreign smell that interferes with the natural pheromones and communications of the hive.

I don't use any oils except for a particular test of breeder queens in the spring. Other than that, I see no reason for the expense, robbing, or other negative impacts on the hive.
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2011, 12:43:44 PM »

Here is a recent write-up that I did that somewhat touches upon the idea of treating bees for this or that. Hope you enjoy....

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekramblings2011.html

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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2011, 01:59:20 AM »

>> but the pH of syrup with cider vinegar would be higher than syrup
>I'm pretty sure you meant that the pH with ACV would be lower than syrup

I thought that' s what I said, but apparently not...  yes it would be lower.  To be specific:
syrup is about 6.0.  Honey is typically between 3.2 and 4.5.  Cider vinegar  will lower pH as it is more acidic and if you get in the range of honey you will encourage less reproduction of Nosema.  I don't know if there is evidence that it will KILL the Nosema, however.

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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2011, 02:26:11 AM »

I used this recipe from the maker of the original feeder. I made my own from a Rubbermaid container. The bees seem to love this recipe and consume it in a few days. My package installation is 17 days old and the girls seem to be doing splendidly. I ordered the Lecithin and oils from Vitacost.com. (http://www.collinsbeefeeder.com/About_the_Feeder.html)


5 Cups Water
2 ½ Pounds of Sugar
1/8 Teaspoon Lecithin Granules (used as an emulsifier)
15 Drops Spearmint Oil
15 Drops Lemongrass Oil

Bring the water to a boil and integrate the sugar until dissolved. Once the sugar is dissolved remove the mixture from the heat and quickly add the lecithin and the essential oils. Stir until everything is evenly distributed. This solution should have a strong scent and not be left open around bees.

Cool before using!!



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Here are some pics of the good work the girls are doing. They loved the guides and are building straight and beautiful comb.



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Finski
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2011, 05:27:47 AM »

.
OH BOY. bees do not need those incredients. I use for swarms 20% sugar syrup. When bees have drawn combs, sugar is away and does not mix into honey.  To mix essential oils to honey during summer is not good at all.

I repeat: Nosema does not tease bees in summer.

Something "over nursing".
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« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2011, 03:03:53 PM »

http://rnoel.50megs.com/letter9.htm this will not work on my phone but I have the letter saved on my work computer if you want to see it

You might have seen this it's part of the studies the maker of hbh did with the university of west virgina.

http://rnoel.50megs.com
And the uwv site also has good info

I use lemongrass spearmint wintergreen and tea tree. Spearmint  and wintergreen are
For mites tea tree is for nosema.
Lemongrass is just for taste.

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« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2011, 11:07:03 PM »

http://rnoel.50megs.com/letter9.htm this will not work on my phone but I have the letter saved on my work computer if you want to see it

You might have seen this it's part of the studies the maker of hbh did with the university of west virgina.

http://rnoel.50megs.com
And the uwv site also has good info

I use lemongrass spearmint wintergreen and tea tree. Spearmint  and wintergreen are
For mites tea tree is for nosema.
Lemongrass is just for taste.




these are not scientific researches. No one do reseaches with non identyfied chemicals like "essentialn oils". They are volatile oils andthat iswhy they stinck.. It is big a group of chemicals.

In  Europe I have not found any varroa stuff which works via eating. Thymol is used widely in autumn syup.


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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2011, 04:37:40 PM »


What is they thymol used for in europe?

Sorry it's not up to your standards finski.
I guess the po foks in west virgina university just can't figure out them complicated concepts of theory, hypothesis, experment, and conclusion.
http://rnoel.50megs.com/letter9.html

Sorry last url was missing the l on the html.
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2011, 07:28:14 PM »

When I feed my bees I use ACV at the rate of 1 Tbsp per gallon.  I've been doing it for over 50 years.  ACV, beside simple syrup, is the only treatment of any kind I use on my bees, my hive losses have been low, hive vitality has been high, as has been production per hive.

Since both ACV and natural oils are deemed to be in the "Crackpot" scheme of beekeeping scientists have not given either any serious considerations.  Most of the scientific studies I've read, that expound great discoveries, have been of such a short duration as to be invalid in it's results.  Usually further extended studies have proven the conclusions of the short studies in error.  A study of 4-8 weeks really proves nothing, a study over 2-3 years would have much more validity but is often not done due to lack of "funding."

As a result may scientific fallacies continue to be prepetuated and "crackpot" practices that have proven helpful through years of use continue to be looked at as quackery, or as Finski says, "magic.".
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2011, 03:04:24 AM »

.
Sorry guys. Euope is 10 years ahead in varroa treament. Italian professor Nanetti one of the best.

Mixing all diseases and essential oils is "advanced hobby job".  i know something too with my 48 beekeeping years.  look from google "nanetti varroa" and you get best knowledge in the world.  USA is now repeating Nanetti's findings.

"natural oils" means nothing.  what are then "unnatural oils".
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2011, 05:20:51 AM »

I did Google "nanetti varroa" until I found something in English that I could read. Very interesting and read worthy. My colony is new and no problems so far. Thanks for the tip Finski but why do you always seem to come across like everyone else is stupid and doing things wrong and you are the only one who knows how to do it right? Is it just me?

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/veterinary/issues/vet-09-33-4/vet-33-4-4-0712-16.pdf
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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2011, 12:42:45 PM »

 angry
I did Google "nanetti varroa" until I found something in English that I could read. Very interesting and read worthy. My colony is new and no problems so far. Thanks for the tip Finski but why do you always seem to come across like everyone else is stupid and doing things wrong and you are the only one who knows how to do it right? Is it just me?


he is fool who debate with one hive owner.  yes, I know much facts about beekeeping.
There are plenty of all kind of fools among beekeepers. Very few want to dig from google facts. It limits imagination...

.should I encourage to do fools things with bees, just to get social acceptance?
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 07:00:55 PM »

Nosema apis does clear up in late spring and is not much of a problem ,but nosema ceranae does not clear up..it persists all through the summer,keeping the colony weak and unproductive,with very few foragers in a severely infected hive.
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