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Author Topic: 2nd Year Newb Questions  (Read 1598 times)
VolunteerK9
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« on: April 21, 2011, 02:33:36 PM »

Just some quick questions that have I have thought at the beginning of my second year: (and just when you thought it was safe that I wouldnt ask anymore)

# 1 After the brood is capped, is it necessary for the nurse bees to still keep them warm, or does the internal hive temperature do the job?

# 2 When multiple queen cells are in a hive, does the first one out destroy all the other existing queen cells then go out to get mated, or
      does she get mated and then return to eliminate the other ones?

More to come I'm sure so please bear with me  cool
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bulldog
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2011, 02:58:12 PM »

i can't help you with those, but i'd like to know the answers also.  grin
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iddee
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2011, 03:18:26 PM »

Since it's the nurse bees that keep the brood nest warm, it is a redundant question. Yes, the nurse bees keep the capped brood warm, by keeping the room warm.


The first queen out that the workers like will kill the other queens immediately, then make the mating flight days later. If the workers don't like her, "deformed or under developed", they will dispose of her and wait on the next one.
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2011, 03:27:55 PM »

> Since it's the nurse bees that keep the brood nest warm, it is a redundant question. Yes, the nurse bees keep the capped brood warm, by keeping the room warm.

I'm thinking the question is more on the line of, if I have too much brood in a hive for the number of nurse bees in it will normal temps if high enough keep the brood warm without enough nurse bees? Ex: In a split

Say here in the south temps in the 80's and  90's. My gut says yes as in making up a split or mating nuc etc, with extra brood.

But I will defer to someone of more experience Wink
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2011, 04:28:02 PM »


# 1 After the brood is capped, is it necessary for the nurse bees to still keep them warm, or does the internal hive temperature do the job?


The nurse bees maintain the capped brood temperature within a pretty narrow range.... 33-36 deg C.  That's a much tighter regulation  than the hive temperature as a whole.  There is research showing that thermo regulating bees enter empty cells in the brood nest to apply heat from their flight muscles to the surrounding cells on both sides of the comb.

 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0008967

Actually, eggs are more tolerant of temperature swings.  Larvae and pupae are more sensitive.  Lots of the pupal development is time critical and the time it takes depends strongly on temperature.

Quote

# 2 When multiple queen cells are in a hive, does the first one out destroy all the other existing queen cells then go out to get mated, or
      does she get mated and then return to eliminate the other ones?


If the first one out always destroyed all the others, we would never see multiple swarms... which are pretty common.  I suspect the decision is made by the hive as a whole, allowing the queen to kill her rivals when they are satisfied they have all the new queens they want.
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iddee
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2011, 05:32:41 PM »

 ""I suspect the decision is made by the hive as a whole,""

Yep...
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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thegolfpsycho
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2011, 06:00:24 PM »

I believe stage of development may also factor in.  A piping queen which hasn't emerged, will likely get got.  Queens which emerge days later may very well be protected, or not detected.  As far as too much brood to keep warm, yes it happens, and it is a huge waste of resources for the colony, or from the colony they were removed from.  Especially in regions that have hard and prolonged freezes in the spring.  Around these parts, colonys can be set back to zero several times each year and I worry more about losing colonys in the spring than in the winter.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2011, 06:37:45 PM »

I agree with chilled brood @ cold temps etc.

The poster is from Southeast Tn. I would expect his temps are fairly warm now. Waiting to hear other beeks comment on his brood question.

I am curious also as my day temps are in the 80's to 90's. Nites are in the 60's.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2011, 07:01:11 PM »

I'm thinking the question is more on the line of, if I have too much brood in a hive for the number of nurse bees in it will normal temps if high enough keep the brood warm without enough nurse bees? Ex: In a split

Say here in the south temps in the 80's and  90's. My gut says yes as in making up a split or mating nuc etc, with extra brood.


The range for normal brood development is 33-36 deg C which is 91.4 to 96.8 F.  So as long as outdoor temps are in that range,  the brood should be ok.  But there is no place in the US where night time temperatures stay above 91.4 degrees F.  Even a few hours outside the correct range would be very bad for brood development.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2011, 11:53:27 PM »

Understood - Thanks
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2011, 01:01:36 AM »

Quote
A piping queen
    what's that ?
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jmblakeney
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2011, 08:20:29 AM »

Quote
A piping queen
    what's that ?

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=8BWaNwsq3mQ. Hope this helps answer your question.  You can hear her pretty well in this video.  It's a vibrating sound most virgin and some mated queens do to locate other queens to fight within the hive.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2011, 09:03:08 AM »

Quote
A piping queen
    what's that ?

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=8BWaNwsq3mQ. Hope this helps answer your question.  You can hear her pretty well in this video.  It's a vibrating sound most virgin and some mated queens do to locate other queens to fight within the hive.


http://wallacefamilyapiary.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/honey-bee-queen-piping-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-done/
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2011, 10:39:46 AM »

The first queen out that the workers like will kill the other queens immediately, then make the mating flight days later. If the workers don't like her, "deformed or under developed", they will dispose of her and wait on the next one.

So in reality, does the queen dispose of all the others, or is it a collective effort of the colony?

Shouldnt all the queen cells hatch within a few hours of the first one hatching or are we looking at maybe a couple of days from the first to the last?

And yes, we are seeing 80's during the daytime now. Just a whole lot of rain.
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thegolfpsycho
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2011, 10:56:30 AM »

As far as all the queens hatching together?  No, all the eggs selected to become queens aren't selected in a row, on the same frame.  I have made some splits in swarm prevention, only to have the colony swarm anyway.  Upon inspection, I found the remnants of a queen cell way out on an outside frame where the queen doesn't very often visit.  At least I didn't think she did.  As far as the "decision" to save multiple queens, I have no idea if it's an accident, a plan, or the genetics of some hives.  We can keep bees because they do certain things MOST of the time, and we can manage them within those boundrys.  When they act outside those boundries, all we can do is react.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2011, 11:06:13 AM »

So in reality, does the queen dispose of all the others, or is it a collective effort of the colony?

I think an emerged queen will kill all her competitors if she has the chance.  But she is often prevented from doing that by other bees in the colony.  This is the "hive mind" level of decision making that is seen in so many activities of the colony.  

One exception to that rule is that a laying queen will often co-exist with her daughter queen.  Both will lay simultaneously.  We had one hive do that all last summer.  I suspect it is a mechanism to double the egg laying rate and it is evolutionarily  favored only because of the close genetic relationship of the two queens.  It's like a form of supercedure in slow motion.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2011, 02:50:02 PM »

I heard fairly recently that the mated queen does not kill other queens it is the virgins that kill other queens?
Is this totally false?
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2011, 08:05:56 PM »

The laying queen is often gone with the swarm before the virgins emerge.  So the first virgin out will want to kill the others in their queen cells.  Or she will kill them after she is mated.  But if the laying queen is not interested in going, she will try to kill any competitors. Sometimes what looks like complex decision making is just the outcome of many competing interests.  But that's true of human decision making too I guess.  grin
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2011, 08:48:31 PM »

I've never seen a laying queen attack anything.  I've never seen a virgin queen attack anything except another virgin queen.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2011, 09:36:37 PM »

>I've never seen a laying queen attack anything.  I've never seen a virgin queen attack anything except another virgin queen.

Did not want to mis-quote, but thought I remembered reading that in a previous post Wink Since it is contrary to what you usually hear ---- it just stuck with me.

So if a old queen is superseded, I suppose the workers off her.
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