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Author Topic: Checkerboarding the brood nest.  (Read 5465 times)

Offline FRAMEshift

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2011, 09:03:15 PM »
sc-bee, these are the definitions I use:     http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm#opening

If checkerboarding just means alternating frames, we could just as well say "alternating frames".  It is useful to differentiate between checkerboarding the honey comb from opening the brood nest.  Over time, words come to mean what the greatest number of people choose for them to mean.  :-D
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2011, 10:03:45 AM »
Oh me, oh my....."Alternating frames, manipulating frames, expanding and/or opening brood nest, CHECKERBOARDING, whatever one calls it,  it all comes down to KYBO.  KEEPING YOUR BROODNEST OPEN.  Isn't 'that' the desired result? Isn't that what Walt's article describes?  His article is titled "MANAGE YOUR BROOD RIGHT FOR MORE HONEY."  And further sub-titled "The large brood volumes fostered by expanding the broodnest by my 'checkerboarding' technique makes a larger difference in honey production than 'normal' (whatever normal is) swarm prevention."

My copy of the original 1877 (a 1923 copy) ABC-XYZ Beekeeping 'cyclopedia' calls it "spreading the broodnest" and/or "frame manipulation."  I'm not sure "who" should be getting credit for these methods but I am fairly certain those so deserving, may be long dead.   

mixofsam/chris; Its supposed to be 65F today, if wind isn't too bad I'll be digging in and doing some of the above, regardless of the word(s) used to describe it :-D.  (Our expected high for Sunday is 35F and snow showers).

I've been calling such methods of frame manipulation "KYBO" for several years now (actually stole it from another acronym ;)). Can anyone guess what?

Simply put, KYBO grows bees, suppresses swarm urge by keeping them busy and happy, and many claim they get more honey (including Walt) depending on timing of manipulation.  There is something of an art to beekeeping in general and "manipulating frames" specifically, and for various reasons, has been around for a very long time, likely since the first 'movable' frames were developed.  I'm not sure if all the debate over what to call certain techniques of manipulating frames or who should recieve credit is really valid or useful, but I'm still listening :) and learning.

thomas
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Offline FRAMEshift

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2011, 11:03:25 AM »
My copy of the original 1877 (a 1923 copy) ABC-XYZ Beekeeping 'cyclopedia' calls it "spreading the broodnest" and/or "frame manipulation."  I'm not sure "who" should be getting credit for these methods but I am fairly certain those so deserving, may be long dead.  

Hmmm.  Frame manipulation.  We need a simpler term.  I know.  Let's all agree to call it FRAMEshift.   :-D  :evil:

KYBO is an excellent term.  Hope it catches on.

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline T Beek

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2011, 05:46:41 PM »
I first picked up the KYBO acronym back in the mid 60's but it meant something else then ;)....and I guess it still does too.  I only started relating it to bees a few years ago.  It fits well for me.

thomas
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2011, 07:48:10 PM »
Oh me, oh my....."Alternating frames, manipulating frames, expanding and/or opening brood nest, CHECKERBOARDING, whatever one calls it,  it all comes down to KYBO.  KEEPING YOUR BROODNEST OPEN.  Isn't 'that' the desired result? Isn't that what Walt's article describes?  His article is titled "MANAGE YOUR BROOD RIGHT FOR MORE HONEY."  And further sub-titled "The large brood volumes fostered by expanding the broodnest by my 'checkerboarding' technique makes a larger difference in honey production than 'normal' (whatever normal is) swarm prevention."


With all due respect Thomas ---- KYBO and Walts Checkerboarding (Nectar Management) are no where near the same ;) Walts method does not involve opening the broodnest but does encourage the expansion of the broodnest. Entirely different!

Bottom line control swarming in the manner that best suits your needs and call it what you like :)
John 3:16

Offline T Beek

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2011, 08:00:32 AM »
sc-bee; This is getting tiring, don't you think?.  But since you're so convinced I'm going to ask you to;  Please explain in detail how any of the above described methods are "no where near the same" and/or "Entirely different!"  I'm afraid that this spreading of confusion is not helpful.  I believe that expanding and opening the broodnest are the same thing but if that's wrong, please set me straight.

And I must disagree, after reading the article for the third time it's apparent that Walt's methods (as well as the title of the article in question) clearly describes "expanding the broodnest."  We "are" still talking about the latest Bee Culture article, right?  In the one I've read he describes "frame manipulations" (something that's been around for over 100 years) used for "Brood expansion, MORE honey and swarm control."  So............

Again, I just don't understand the debate or why it is continuing, so due to my own ignorance I'm asking for a less opaque explanation, (and just wanting to give Walt Wright credit for these methods doesn't count :-D)

thomas
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2011, 08:40:02 PM »
Get back with you later t-beek for some more :deadhorse: I promise ;)
John 3:16

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2011, 01:52:12 AM »
I must admit a little bias on my part.  Up until a couple of years ago I didn't have a copy ABC& XYZ of Beekeeping or The Hive and the Honey Bee or any other book about beekeeping, other than one I wrote as a high school science project back in the 1960's.  I've relied solely upon the information I was taught by my mentor and what I've picked up on my own in the 45 years since my mentor's passing.  I now own both the books mentioned and a few more, but I haven't read either completely, just bits and pieces.  I found a lot the experience has shown me to be incorrect.

My mentor, who had been beekeeping since the 1890's, used the term Checkerboarding for any application where frames of different status were alternated in any pattern.  As a result, that's the way I use the term and really thought everybody else did too.  Naivity on my part.

So, I will stay out of the arguement from here on out concerning Checkerboarding, frame management, opening the brood chamber, or frameshifting.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 02:27:07 AM by Brian D. Bray »
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2011, 10:26:41 AM »
Not to continue this stray off topic, but as we all know, having a "good" mentor early on is a luxury for many beeks.  Brian is one of the fortunate and we are fortunate to have his wisdom as was passed down to him.  My original mentors, if one can call them that (they practiced some methods that even then, I felt/knew were harmful to bees), were a commercial outfit out west during the mid-70's, we ran about 1500 hives, which was a lot back then.  They sucked as mentors, nuf said about that.

Anyhow, the experience left me with such a bad taste that it took 30 years to get back into beekeeping (on my own without a mentor, other than all of you :) and a huge amount of reading, basically relearning everything I thought I knew.  But one thing I do know for sure is that moving frames around for a variety of reasons has been practiced for a very long time.

thomas
"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2011, 07:40:47 PM »
I come to you humbly with my tail tucked, egg on my face, while eating crow :oops: After you mentioned were we looking at the same article I backed tracked and notice my pages and the original posters pages did not match. The post was on April 2, so I ASSuMEd the article was the one I read recently in Bee Culture. The article I was referring to was in the Feb issue. I have since learned from you guys and seeing it today that there is an article in the April issue. I did not have time to read the issue, I briefly scanned it, and my issue has not arrived. Probably because it is time for me to renew!

Of course I can not respond specifically to an article I have not completely read, though scanning it however it looks similar to his other articles which I have read, all I can find on Checkerboarding (Nectar Management). I also purchased his manuscript on Nectar Management. He has written some articles on other subjects, the pollen box maneuver , feeding etc. I have spoken to Walt several times by phone to get clarification on a few matters and he has written me once. No this doesn't make me an expert  :-D but probably, a little more informed than most and less informed than some.

I stand by my above statements in previous post :soapbox: and will remark on them based on other articles or I can wait till I read the new article! The call is yours!

Yes it is getting a little tiring but I have gotten a second wind or burst of hot air :-D and am ready to go again :deadhorse:

By the way Brian join in, I promise I will take no offense, and I value reading your post as always ;)

One last remark - I did not in any way mean to suggest Walt coined the phrase Checkerboarding and I don't think he intended to try! It is just the name I think others stuck on it, as he started with the name Nectar Management (but of course here I go ASSuMEing again). My comment was meant to mean, there needs to be a way to differentiate between the methods as to avoid this kind of confusion (I think I stated that above). As for giving Walt credit,  what I meant, was for his work with bees and being willing to share it with others not discovering checkerboarding or cornering the market on it.

I really think no one is interested in this topic although it is getting alot of views. I think it is probably just a subject between us two! :devilbanana:

Maybe others, if interested, can and should weigh in!


Steve
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 09:37:26 PM by sc-bee »
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2011, 08:59:01 AM »
KYBO (which I feel also includes the techniques known as checkerboarding) is still good enough for me, but that's "just me." 

I'm not here trying to force my opinions on anyone, but KYBO describes/includes most (all?) forms of frame manipulation well enough with the end result depending on the beek doing the frame manipulating, whether for swarm control, growing more bees (or squeezing them down) or making more honey (which was the essence of Walt's 'most recent" article regarding checkerboarding). 

In hindsite, I guess "all of the above" could just come under the FRAME MANIPULATION heading, including KYBO.

thomas
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2011, 05:39:33 PM »
>I'm not here trying to force my opinions on anyone, but KYBO describes/includes most (all?)

Neither am I! ;)

>Bottom line control swarming in the manner that best suits your needs and call it what you like Smiley
I think that is what I said a few post back!

If it works don't fix it :-D

« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 07:57:54 PM by sc-bee »
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Offline don2

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2011, 07:21:39 PM »
Going into my 12th year of beekeeping. I have never checker boarded, I try to keep enough ready brood boxes/honey supers on hand to add when needed. Most times swarming comes from the bees running out of room.
If you got married and had twins the first year, a boy and a girl. You started with one bed room, what wood you do? :? :)don2

Offline T Beek

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2011, 07:57:08 PM »
Expand the broodnest? :-D

thomas
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2011, 07:59:26 PM »
Quit staggering the honey :-*
John 3:16

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2011, 11:47:41 PM »
Quit staggering the honey :-*

Fermented honey is what causes all the staggering.   :-D
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Checkerboarding the brood nest.
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2011, 12:45:10 AM »
Quit staggering the honey :-*

Fermented honey is what causes all the staggering.   :-D


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