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Author Topic: WOW!! Obama said something I agree with  (Read 1517 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: March 28, 2011, 08:49:40 PM »


Obama says too much testing makes education boring

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110328/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_education


By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Erica Werner, Associated Press

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama said Monday that students should take fewer standardized tests and school performance should be measured in other ways than just exam results. Too much testing makes education boring for kids, he said.

"Too often what we have been doing is using these tests to punish students or to, in some cases, punish schools," the president told students and parents at a town hall hosted by the Univision Spanish-language television network at Bell Multicultural High School in Washington, D.C.
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2011, 09:04:02 PM »

This coming from a man who wants to hold all teachers accountable and use a merit pay system by testing the students and grading the schools by these tests.   -quote from my wife, the teacher.
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 09:17:13 PM »

tests are boring, but how else do you measure learning?  how was our learning measured?  what other ideas does he have?  how do you measure how well the teacher teaches if you don't test the students?

for that matter, school is boring to many students.  maybe we should do away with school?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 10:09:31 PM »

For a long time they have only been teaching towards passing the standardized test. They are not taught the same way we were way back in the day.

How were we measured?

When you talk about students not knowing where the different states are located, or other various things you find important to know, it is because they are only teaching for the passing of these test.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2011, 10:13:35 PM »

This coming from a man who wants to hold all teachers accountable and use a merit pay system by testing the students and grading the schools by these tests.   -quote from my wife, the teacher.

Isn't this what the standardized test do. These test that have been around long before Obama?

And who else do we hold accountable for the things our kids are taught if not the teachers. So many times I hear teachers blaming the parents. Some parents that are not smart enough to help the kids with the homework they send home. How can the parents teach what they themselves don't know?

Hummmm
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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2011, 10:18:43 PM »

Quote
When you talk about students not knowing where the different states are located, or other various things you find important to know, it is because they are only teaching for the passing of these test.

ok, but if the test measures what you are supposed to know, and the teacher has taught what is on the test, then the teacher has taught what the student is supposed to know?  we used to have chapter tests.  read the chapter, take the test.  the book taught what was in the test.  the test measured whether or not you had absorbed what was in the book. 

maybe we need harder tests so that teachers teach more?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2011, 12:27:53 AM »

This is my take on it.

There are those people I believe know you turn the key to start the car and put it in gear to go. But they have no clue how any of it works. That is studying to pass the standardized tests.

Question one. What should one do every three thousand mile?

We know the answer is "Change the oil". But we do not know why.

Where as teaching the subject, one would know why we change the oil. We would know the processes that make the car start and run.

There is this;

http://www.brighthub.com/education/k-12/articles/3239.aspx
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Keith13
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2011, 06:37:58 AM »

Standardized test are driven by the federal education system. Remove the fed from education and return the schools to teaching subjects not test. School districts chase federal money that federal money is partially based on test scores, therefore they teach test.

Keith
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indypartridge
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 07:41:58 AM »

Quote from: kathyp
...  we used to have chapter tests.  read the chapter, take the test.  the book taught what was in the test.  the test measured whether or not you had absorbed what was in the book.  maybe we need harder tests so that teachers teach more?

The difference I see is that when I went to school, it was 'normal' for some kids to fail tests. Some kids got bad grades, some kids got held back. Now we want everyone to pass: "No Child Left Behind". Dumb-down the tests so more kids can pass. Rate the teachers and schools by the percentage of kids passing standardized tests (which I don't think is a bad thing) and then keep raising the bar, demanding "improvement" in those numbers each year (which I do think is a bad thing). The Bell Curve doesn't go away: there will always be some percentage of kids who either are slow, don't want to learn, or whatever. Should those kids get some extra attention? Yes! Should tests be made easier to increase the passing percentage? No. Instead of accepting that in school, just as in life, there will be some who will fail, we pay greater and greater attention to those few, at the expense of encouraging and really teaching everyone else.
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2011, 10:13:10 AM »

For a long time they have only been teaching towards passing the standardized test. They are not taught the same way we were way back in the day.

How were we measured?

When you talk about students not knowing where the different states are located, or other various things you find important to know, it is because they are only teaching for the passing of these test.

I agree...I work in a school and the whole year is geared towards the kids taking the TCAP test. Teachers are under so much pressure for the kids to do good at this test, that I think other areas areas are never even touched-no time to teach outside the box so to speak. My 8th grade teacher would pull a book off the shelf after lunch and read to us for about an hour every day-usually something from Mark twain and I loved it.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 11:34:32 AM »

i  understand all of the above and i agree with lots of it.  but....how do you evaluate what kids learn if you don't test. in jerrymacs oil change, you can have the person demonstrate the oil change.  when it comes to things like geography, or math, etc. i don't know how you would know that a kid learned a thing if you didn't test them.  if the test is the measure of knowledge, then of course you would teach what is on the test. 

when i was a kid we used to memorize things.  times tables, state capitols, dates.  it worked.  when you took the test, the things you had memorized and didn't even know you knew, were there for retrieval.  for kids like me, who see answers, flash cards were great.  when my kids were in school, all that was gone.  i don't think they learned as much or what they learned did not stick as well.  i remember proof reading one of my college sons' papers and wondering how he got through high school and didn't know the difference between there, their, and they're.

i don't know how other countries do it, but i remember when i was in Japan years ago and the kids were drilling, drilling, and memorizing everything and freaking out because of the tests they had to take.  i'm sure it was stressful and i know it was harsh, but there is a reason those kids can do math and kids on this country can't.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2011, 03:31:33 PM »

I am not saying to stop testing all together. We had test in school. Every now and then a Pop Quiz from out of no where. And those are what saved me.

I would pay attention to the teachers and read assignments but I was really lousy at doing my home work. One year Mom grounded me for half the school year to my room and I still didn't do the home work. But I passed the test with flying colors. Kept me from failing. Grades were low but I passed  grin

To me it seemed we were taught and learning and we had test to see if we learned what we were taught.

But this is different. This isn't learning it is "programming" for specific tests. To pass the test. Not to see what you learned.

I am not real sure how to say it, but it is different. And a good reason they don't know which "there" to use. Or which your. Or they use are instead of our.

Here instead of hear. Which witch is which?
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Keith13
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2011, 04:46:30 PM »

I just think to much weight is put in standardized testing test the subjects

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 05:40:43 PM »

i don't know the answer but i do know that whatever we are doing is not working.  i'm pretty sure more teaching of "culture" won't fix it.  when i went to school you performed or you failed.  if you failed in school, you went into a trade.  nothing wrong with that.  it wasn't a failure of the person, just of academic achievement.  now we jam kids toward college whether they want to go that direction or not...or whether they even have the aptitude/intellect for it.  now if they fail they feel like they have personally failed.  going into a trade is a sign of that failure. 

a kid with a 70 IQ is not getting a degree.   that same kid might be a fantastic auto mechanic.  a kid with a 140 IQ might not want to go to college.  that kid might be a fantastic auto mechanic.  why do we push all kids toward higher education and make them feel like they have failed if that's not where they end up?  by the time a kid is 14 or 15 there ought to be options other than a purely academic education.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2011, 08:21:08 PM »

"Failure" is a personal opinion. I am not a failure though there would be many that would label me as such because I wouldn't fit their definition of success. I see these people running like crazy, never anytime for themselves or family. While they may be way up on the financial food chain, I consider them a failure. I mean really, is that all life is? Trying to get ahead?
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 11:23:08 PM »

The problem with the tests is that they are focused on the wrong component of learning.

True learning is turning knowledge and practice into application. 

Don't test for what they've memorized, test for what they conclude.  That's the true measure of learning. 

Literacy increases the opportunity to learn by creating access to the knowledge of others, but I've know some very smart people who were illiterate.  They extrapolated what they had learned into conclusions and ideas that helped them learn more.
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2011, 05:02:36 AM »

Quote
there is a reason those kids can do math and kids in this country can't.

Hmmmm, are you saying our kids can’t do math?  Maybe you can answer this 12 year olds math question.  He is only 12.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110329/ts_yblog_thelookout/for-12-year-old-astrophysics-prodigy-the-skys-the-limit

Quote
Question one. What should one do every three thousand miles?

We know the answer is "Change the oil". But we do not know why.


Jerry, some beek  (I can’t remember who) claimed it was the UAW why we had to change the oil.  Now that was some real learning back in the day.  When did our educational system start failing again?

I agree with Kathy, you obviously have to test to separate the people who are making an honest effort to learn vs the slackers.  Otherwsie you have a form of educational communism.  However some states like Florida just spend a ridiculous amount of time just trying to pass the FCATs.  

I also think most adults would have a hard time passing the math and the science that many school kids are learning these days.  Many schools are doing a good job teaching.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2011, 09:01:28 AM »

Jerry, some beek  (I can’t remember who) claimed it was the UAW why we had to change the oil.  Now that was some real learning back in the day.  

Really  huh I have this pickup truck sitting out in the back that shows what happens when the ex-wife never changes the oil.  grin
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2011, 09:38:10 AM »

Another Brick In The Wall - Pink Floyd
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