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Author Topic: the coming of the Islamic messiah  (Read 5417 times)
asprince
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2011, 08:51:54 AM »

thebalvenie,

I spend a lot of time on this forum mainly reading and sometimes posting. Although kathy and I share a lot of similar views on topics, I enjoy reading opposing view points. They make me think. Please don't feel like you have to take your marbles and leave.

Steve   
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2011, 09:26:55 AM »

lovely book you wrote, but it has what to do with the goals of radical Islam?  

if you want to sit naked in a field and commune with wood nymphs, go for it.  if that makes you feel spiritual, i don't care.

i do care that there is a group, well finance and well armed, who are announcing their plans an goals.  we need to listen and understand what they are saying.  since they have taken steps toward achieving their goal, we need to believe that they believe what they are saying.


Kathy,
I find it really interesting that now conservatives like yourself are saying we need to listen to islamists and 'understand what they are saying'.  A few years ago when liberals attempted to do this y'all accused them of being too soft and 'touchy feely', of coddling terrorists.

Hmmmm.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2011, 09:44:02 AM »

thebalvenie

As you are not coming back I guess you will not see this. Your post was lengthy. Surely you could have picked out the meaty parts to it and posted that. It lost me after the first paragraph but I tried struggling through it a little bit longer. Sometimes I think I have ADHD because I can not read through lengthy articles. But I couldn't see where your article had anything to do to with what Kathy posted. I know I am not as edjumacated as most around here, and I would appreciate it if you would explain it so a simple individual as myself could understand it instead of going off on some tangent how people are picking on you.

No one I know of is in lock step with Kathy. She and I have our differences. We are a tough crowd. If we believe we are right we will stand our ground. I been called a few names myself by various individuals but I let it pass right over me and continue with the discussion instead of throwing insults back and forth. Mud slinging gets no one anywhere.

Kathy,
I find it really interesting that now conservatives like yourself are saying we need to listen to islamists and 'understand what they are saying'.  A few years ago when liberals attempted to do this y'all accused them of being too soft and 'touchy feely', of coddling terrorists.

She isn't saying to coddle terrorist. She is saying you need to know and understand your enemy.
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2011, 09:48:12 AM »

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kathy, ever since i've been on this board you come off as the most arrogant and pretentious person i've never met.  given i only have a small sample to go by, i think you're mean and petty and rude and frankly just plain closed minded.  


if this is how i have come across to you, then i do owe you an apology.  i am sorry.  i tend to be very direct.  i am sure that is abrasive to many.  i also have a warped sense of humor that  may be lost in the writing.
i hope you will reconsider you decision to leave the board.  i don't agree with you an many things, but disagreement is what makes the world interesting.

Quote
find it really interesting that now conservatives like yourself are saying we need to listen to islamists and 'understand what they are saying'.


understanding the enemy is always a good thing.  it's what you do with that understanding that matters.  liberals think that if they can understand, they can accommodate.  that is not my point in wishing to understand what they are saying.  is wish to understand so that i can be ahead of whatever plans they have.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2011, 10:11:59 AM »

well I read about one third of it and decided it was something he cut/paste and started looking to see if it was credited to someone else.

And it wasn't.



Jery, clearly you didn't read it (or haven't gotten to the word "by" in your hooked on phonics lessons yet), because the very first line clearly attributes it to an article by David James Dumcan)
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2011, 10:15:59 AM »

well I read about one third of it and decided it was something he cut/paste and started looking to see if it was credited to someone else.

And it wasn't.



Jery, clearly you didn't read it (or haven't gotten to the word "by" in your hooked on phonics lessons yet), because the very first line clearly attributes it to an article by David James Dumcan)

Yep. Does now. Notice the edited part at the bottom? He put it in after I posted that.  grin
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2011, 10:19:54 AM »

well I read about one third of it and decided it was something he cut/paste and started looking to see if it was credited to someone else.

And it wasn't.



Jery, clearly you didn't read it (or haven't gotten to the word "by" in your hooked on phonics lessons yet), because the very first line clearly attributes it to an article by David James Dumcan)

Rule Number #1 on gouging someone-make sure that if you crack on someone using the "Hooked on Phonics" line, that everything you say is spelled correctly. Jery is spelled Jerry and David James Dumcan is David James Duncan  grin

You apparently didnt read it either, cuz if you did you would see at the bottom that the OP edited the post to give credit to the original author and a couple of posts later states that he did so.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2011, 11:05:54 AM »

 beat a dead horse

Like I said. Tough crowd  grin
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2011, 01:08:20 PM »

The essay discuss christian right wing fundamentalist.....


I'll do my best to quote Walid Shoebat as accurately as possible, he's something of an authority on Islam in my book; someone who knows it firsthand and was raised a muslim.
                "When people say to me 'fundamentalism! fundamentalism is the source of all religious violence, so it is the christian and muslim fundamentalists alike you must guard against.' I tell them this: Christian fundameltalists will give you a headache - we don't deny that, saying things you don't want to hear from us - Muslim fundamentalists, they take the whole head off."
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2011, 03:03:23 PM »

People, this is a bee forum.  Lighten up!  Don’t take things so personally.

I hardly ever agree with Kathy’s conservative views, but I don’t take it personally.  I enjoy a plurality of view points and I enjoy Kathy’s posts.  I definitely listen to Kathy about bees whereas I prefer the AceBird when it comes to politics  grin
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Keith13
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2011, 05:23:31 PM »

I hate to see people pick up and leave its a forum people will disagree. Balvenie I hope you stay I like to see opposing views it gives balance. I hated to see a few others go that went. If nothing else enjoy the forum for the bee info its a wealth of information sometimes you just have to pick through the static

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2011, 05:31:24 PM »

Quote
I definitely listen to Kathy about bees whereas I prefer the AceBird when it comes to politics   


yikes!!   evil

i sent him a pm to apologize for whatever i did to offend him.  guess i don't have the soft touch.....a personal fault.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2011, 11:12:15 PM »

Having spent a year in an Islamic country and having encountered many other Muslims since, I have found their belief system to be a tad hypocritical.  Most Muslims are illiterate, still, and they've all had their local Imans and other clerics tell them what the true meaning of the Koran was.  The interpretation depended upon the cleric (much like Christianity). 
Their abherence to there religion was harsh and the true peacetaught within the religion was only applicable to those who not only believed but obeyed.  They are taught that anyone who is not of the "true faith" (Islam) is an enemy of their church and of their God.  They are also taught that deception and misdirection are acceptable tools in confounding their enemies.

When I was in Turkey, I studied the Muslim religion a bit, because I was still searching for my religious belief system.
What I discovered then was that Mohammad was actually a Christian Prophet who emphazied the teaching of the Torah and Mosaic laws (eye for an eye).  The other item that was emphazied was the reward for dying in service to God. 

When I was in Japan, I studied Shinto, and while in Thailand I studied both Buddahism and Hinduism.  My conclusions from learning and comparing all of the major religions, including Catholicism and Christianity, was that they were all based on the same set of basic moral philosophies and tenants but they all went astray in the details.

I decided not to join a church until I found one that could answer all the questions that I had developed in studying all the others.  Today I'm LDS (Mormon).

You are free to believe as you wish, worship the God, the established or unorthadox sectarian beliefs, or the absence of of a God, of your choice.  But in the end, if it is a truth, it is of God, if it is not a truth it is not of God.  If you believe in, live, and teach truthes, it doesn't matter what belief system you attach yourself to.

One of those truthes is Know your enemy.

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2011, 08:51:37 AM »

Here is another thing that is always over looked, side stepped, or just ignored because one doesn't want it to be true.

If there is this all mighty creator, and he/she/it does indeed give us rules to live by, (Do it right and be rewarded or suffer the consequences) then out of all the religions and the variations of all the religions there is only one that is correct..... OR ...... none of them are.

If you truly believe your religion/faith is the right one then all others are evil and sinners. And if you are not suppose to associate with the sinners and you are suppose to fight the evil, then I guess all religions are extremist if they do as instructed. 

I was disowned by some Aunts Uncles and Cousins because I was too much of a sinner.  rolleyes They could not associate with me.

Let's take homosexuality for instance. I know how some people feel about that on here. What does your religion tell you about it? If it tells you it is a sin then I really have to wonder why those people fight so hard against homosexuality and not so much or not at all against all the other sins in the world.

Opps. Starting to ramble. But one day I will ask my questions about God. Some I am sure has no answers.

But here is one....

Most all religions seems to need us lowly humans to fight the good fight for our maker. Why? The all powerful, creator of all things needs us to fight evil for him? He needs us to bring about the coming of the messiah?
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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2011, 09:09:51 AM »

I thought I posted something here last night but now it is gone. Or I posted it somewhere else. Or I hit the wrong button and didn't post it at all. If you have seen the following roaming around some where would you please tell me where you saw it. (And sorry for the re-post if it is some place else)


Islams vs Islamist

In our silence, Muslim Americans essentially collaborate with the Islamists

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110329/cm_csm/373083


American Muslim - First line of defense  huh

Muslim Americans: The dangers of lumping our friends in with our enemies

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110329/cm_csm/373030

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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2011, 10:25:50 AM »

Most Muslims are illiterate, still, and they've all had their local Imans and other clerics tell them what the true meaning of the Koran was.  The interpretation depended upon the cleric (much like Christianity).

Nice post Brian, but I just cannot let this part of your comment pass uncontested.  I'm not expert on Islam, but as I understand it, the Koran must be read in Arabic (which Muslims believe is the language of their god).  Doesn't matter whether you are in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia or the US.  Nor does it matter whether you speak Arabic or not.  On the other hand, Christianity, based upon the Bible, has been and continues to be translated into every known language...even those who don't even have a written language.  Gutenberg invented the printing press and distributed the Bible freely throughout the known world in the 15th century.  Today, there are study aids and reference texts on the Bible by the thousands written for common folks just like me.

I go to church, I have a pastor, but he's a dude, just like me and has his faults and errors.  True Christianity for an individual does not rely upon a pastor to interpret everything, nor do I believe that most Christians are illiterate.  I respect my pastor, he studies and has more understanding than me (because that's his job), but I am to measure everything against what the Bible says myself.  And guess what, I don't agree with his interpretation on several things and I don't blindly follow him on everything he says.  He openly encourages all of us to search the scriptures ourselves as have all of my pastors my entire life of 47 years.  

Islam is nothing like Christianity...not even close.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2011, 10:28:13 AM »

I hate to say it but every time I hear "but we're the nice ones" I can't help but think of Ft. Hood; there is nothing nicer (to the nation) than aiding in its defense, major toenail hashpipe (whatever) was a paragon of military service until he pursued his roots.

To your post before that: I don't know if it was God or Man who thought up Purgatory, but to me it makes sense. Eternal fire and damnation because you stole a toy from the toystore at age 12 and were unrepentant because the manager was a meanie? (stealing is a sin...)
I just think that a place of temporary punishment makes sense.
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« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2011, 10:55:14 AM »

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I can't help but think of Ft. Hood; there is nothing nicer (to the nation) than aiding in its defense, major toenail hashpipe (whatever) was a paragon of military service until he pursued his roots.


he really wasn't.  there were plenty of warning signs that he was going to radical way, but PC kept them from going after him.  even the FBI had a watch on him, but let him go on.  PC may be our biggest killer if we don't start being honest about what some believe. 

i have known a fair number of Muslims.  worked with some in the military.  worked with some as a civilian.  to my knowledge, none were planning death and destruction.  if i were working with them today would i look at them differently?  to be honest....probably.  however, i grew up learning to judge people as people and not as groups.  we have a number of Arab and Persian families in our town.  one family runs a small market.  another runs one of the gas stations.  i don't give it a thought when i stop at either. 

just as we should not paint all Muslims with the "radical" brush, neither should be paint them all with the "Islam is peaceful" brush.  either generalization would be stupid and dangerous.  education allows us to make the distinction.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2011, 12:05:18 PM »


he really wasn't.  there were plenty of warning signs that he was going to radical way, but PC kept them from going after him.  even the FBI had a watch on him, but let him go on.  PC may be our biggest killer if we don't start being honest about what some believe. 


I remember that, but he had earned the rank of major before that, and I can only presume it was by not giving those signals for some time before. I won't ever know for certain if in his early career he believed that he could defend a democratic republic and be faithful to his religion or not though.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2011, 10:27:07 PM »

Most Muslims are illiterate, still, and they've all had their local Imans and other clerics tell them what the true meaning of the Koran was.  The interpretation depended upon the cleric (much like Christianity).

Nice post Brian, but I just cannot let this part of your comment pass uncontested.  I'm not expert on Islam, but as I understand it, the Koran must be read in Arabic (which Muslims believe is the language of their god).  Doesn't matter whether you are in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia or the US.  Nor does it matter whether you speak Arabic or not.  On the other hand, Christianity, based upon the Bible, has been and continues to be translated into every known language...even those who don't even have a written language.  Gutenberg invented the printing press and distributed the Bible freely throughout the known world in the 15th century.  Today, there are study aids and reference texts on the Bible by the thousands written for common folks just like me.

Gutenberg replaced the handcopied Bibles held by the local vicar's, priests, monks, etc, with a printed version that could make multiple copies at a time and made it possible for the common man to obtain a Bible.  One of the problems with the Christian Bible, and one of the reasons it has so many "Gotcha's" (supposed contradictions) in it is that different Abbie's translated different parts of it.  There was no definitive "correct" interpretation or universal standard.  They were also translated from different languages, Roman, Greek, Aramaic, to name the more common.  Therefore, the Bible must be taken as Truth along with the qualifier "As far as it is correctly (or incorrectly) translated."
 
Quote
I go to church, I have a pastor, but he's a dude, just like me and has his faults and errors. True Christianity for an individual does not rely upon a pastor to interpret everything, nor do I believe that most Christians are illiterate.  I respect my pastor, he studies and has more understanding than me (because that's his job), but I am to measure everything against what the Bible says myself.  And guess what, I don't agree with his interpretation on several things and I don't blindly follow him on everything he says.  He openly encourages all of us to search the scriptures ourselves as have all of my pastors my entire life of 47 years.  

Self education via reading and prayerful study will give you a better understanding of the true meaning of the scriptures than any pastor can.  Sunday morning sermons are still afflicted with individual slant. I go to church also, I've attended every thing from Catholism to Pen tacostel on the Christianity side and delved into Islam, Shinto, Buddhism, and Hindu besides.  All of those major religions are more similar than dissimilar.

In the Old Testament there is a verse about Noah and his family being saved by water....what are the two correct interpretations of that verse?  Yes there are two meanings to that specific verse, both are correct but only the most obvious one is taught openly yet the second meaning is a logical conclusion given the teachings of Christianity. 

Quote
Islam is nothing like Christianity...not even close.
As it is taught and practiced, mostly orally, you are correct.
But if you compare the Koran, Torah, and the Bible, the 1st 5 books are the same and the remainder of the texts are quite similar.  The problem with teaching and reteaching something orally is that individual precepts creep in and evently take over the information being taught.
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