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Author Topic: the coming of the Islamic messiah  (Read 5429 times)
kathyp
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« on: March 28, 2011, 02:48:09 PM »


http://atimetobetray.com/blog/iran-leaders-the-coming-is-upon-us-%E2%80%93-israel-shall-be-destroyed-watch-the-video/

this is pretty interesting.  good look into the mind and motivations of the Iranian nuts and other radicals.  also a little scary when you realize that they absolutely believe this and see an active place for them in bringing it about.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2011, 04:52:35 PM »

"Therefore let us shout out loud that The Coming is soon and that evil should be fearful. We live with these thoughts every day and our lives are filled with The Coming of the last Imam. That human will reappear and fill the world with justice and establish his promised governance on earth. The very world has witnessed too much bloodshed of the innocent for others to build their palaces.  The very world is filled with shouts for justice. The innocent and the oppressed are losing their lives to world powers.  It is in this very world where the oppressors rule and this world that Allah will command the last Imam to appear and forever put an end to injustice. At that time the world will belong to the righteous."

Replace Allah with Jesus and you've got an American evangelical tirade. The American Taliban is just as scary.

http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html

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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 05:54:39 PM »

had a little mental bet going on which one of you would post this crap.  some small differences.  don't know of any organized Christian movement that wants to wipe a people off the map, thinks that their highest calling and path to salvation come from dying while killing, or who believe that we need a world in chaos to usher in the final coming.....and who have actually been working toward that chaos.  don't know, for instance, of any western leaders calling for wiping iran off the map.....   i will grant you that there may be some individual "Christians" who have nutty ideas.....not quite the same, i think. but hey....prove me wrong.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 06:44:55 PM »

had a little mental bet going on which one of you would post this crap.  some small differences.  don't know of any organized Christian movement that wants to wipe a people off the map, thinks that their highest calling and path to salvation come from dying while killing, or who believe that we need a world in chaos to usher in the final coming.....and who have actually been working toward that chaos.  don't know, for instance, of any western leaders calling for wiping iran off the map.....   i will grant you that there may be some individual "Christians" who have nutty ideas.....not quite the same, i think. but hey....prove me wrong.

What Fundamentalist Need for their Salvation by David James Duncan from Orion.com
I WAS BORN A CHOSEN PERSON, THOUGH this state of affairs was not of my choosing. My mother, grandmother and great-grandmother were staunch Seventh Day Adventists—a Saturday-worshiping fundamentalist sect that arose in the mid-19th century. Our faith’s founder prophesied Jesus’ Second Coming and “the Rapture” in 1850. When both failed to occur, he instead started the church into which the matriarchs of my family were later born. These strong women gave their offspring no choice but to attend the same churches and share their faith, so attend and share we did. My father and grandfather, however, did not attend church, and my friends at public school didn’t either. I, in other words, was “saved”—no plagues of frogs or eternal hellfire for me—whereas my father, grandfather, and school friends were impending toast.

My earliest memory of Adventist faith-training is of being four-years-old in Sabbath School and having to sing “Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam” while making our fingers extend out around our faces like ‘sunbeams.’ I felt nothing for Jesus as we did this—and I loved Jesus; found him heroic from earliest memory. All I can recall feeling during the sunbeam song, though, was bafflement that our teachers would make us do such silly things. As for the time I asked Jesus for a base hit at a ball game, when I stepped to the plate and struck out on three pitches I was relieved: if every kid in America could get a hit just by asking Jesus, we’d all bat a thousand and ruin baseball in a day.

Intense spiritual feelings were frequent visitors during my boyhood, but they did not come from church-going or from bargaining with God in prayer. They came, unmediated, from Creation itself. In even the smallest suburban wilds I felt linked to powers and mysteries I could imagine calling “the Presence of God.” In fifteen years of church-going I did not once feel this same sense of Presence. What I felt instead was a lot of heavily agenda-ed fear-based information being shoved at me by men on the church payroll. Though these men claimed to speak for God, I was never convinced.

On the day I was granted the option of what our preachers called “leaving the faith,” I did. Following intuition and love with all the sincerity and attentiveness I could muster, I chose to spend my life in the company of rivers, wilderness, wisdom literature, like-minded friends, and quiet contemplation. As it’s turned out, this life has enriched me with a sense of the holy, and left me far more grateful than I’ll ever be able to say.

AFTER THREE DECADES OF INTIMACY with some of the world’s greatest wisdom texts and some of the West’s most beautiful rivers, I assumed I’d escaped the orbit of organized religion. Then came a night in Medford, Oregon. After giving a literary reading to a warm, not-at-all-church-like crowd, I was walking to the car when one of the most astute men I know—my good friend, Sam Alvord—clapped me on the back and amiably remarked: “I enjoy your evangelism.”

I was flabbergasted. Evangelism? I was a story-teller, not one of those dang proselytizers! The evangelists I’d known since childhood thought the supposed “inerrancy of the Bible” magically neutralized their own flaming errancy and gave them an apostolic right to judge humanity and bilk it at the same time. The evangelists I’d known proclaimed themselves saved, the rest of us darned, and swore that only by shouting “John 3:16! John 3:16!” at others, as if selling Redemption Peanuts at a ball game, could we avoid an Eternal State of Ouch.

Then honest Sam tells me: “I enjoy your evangelism”?

bleep O. Deer.

My response to Sam’s remark was to repress the living bejeezus out of it. Ten years passed before I dared look up the “e-word” in The Oxford English Dictionary. What I found was what you might call “damning.” Though the range of meanings surrounding the root-word “evangel” was vast, a whole raft of definitions tied my public readings, literary writings and me to Sam’s characterization. Insofar as I believe Jesus is the bee’s knees, and insofar as I speak words that could be seen as spreading the spiritual intent of the gospels, I must admit, with “fear and trembling,” that I am (gulp!) evangelical.

Having darned myself in what we might call “anti-evangelical circles,” I’d like to qualify that damnation by stating what the word “evangelical” suggests to me.

Religious laws, in all the major traditions, have both a letter and a spirit. As I understand the words and example of Jesus, the spirit of a law is all-important, whereas the letter, while useful in conjunction with spirit, becomes lifeless and deadly without it. In accord with this distinction, a yearning to worship in wilderness or beside rivers, rather than in churches, could legitimately be called evangelical. Jesus himself began his mission after forty days and nights in wilderness. According to the same letter vs. spirit distinction, the law-heavy literalism of many so-called evangelicals is not evangelical at all: “evangel” means “the gospels”; the essence of the gospels is Jesus; and literalism is not something that Jesus personified or taught.

Nor need one be a Christian for the word “evangelical” to apply: if your words or deeds harmonize with the example of Jesus, you are evangelical in spirit whether you claim to be or not. When the non-Christian Ambrose Bierce, for instance, wrote, “War is the means by which Americans learn geography,” there was acid dripping almost visibly from his pen. His words, however, are aimed at the same anti-war end as the gospel statements “Love thine enemies” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” And “Blessed are the peacemakers.” Bierce’s wit is in this sense evangelical whether he likes it or not.

True evangelism, based on the example of Jesus, does not suggest the “missionary zeal” of self-righteous proselytizers. It implies, on the contrary, the kind of all-embracing universality evident in Mother Teresa’s prayer: “May God break my heart so completely that the whole world falls in.” Not just fellow nuns, Catholics, Calcuttans, Indians. The whole world. It gives me pause to realize that, were such a prayer said by me and answered by God, I would afterward possess a heart so open that even hate-driven zealots would fall inside. There is a self-righteous knot in me that finds zealotry so repugnant it wants to sit on the sidelines with the like-minded, plaster our cars with bumper stickers that say “Mean People Suck” and “No Billionaire Left Behind” and “Who would Jesus Bomb?”, and leave it at that. But my sense of the world as a gift, my sense of a grace operative in this world despite its terrors, propels me to allow the world to open my heart still wider, even if the openness comes by breaking—for I have seen the whole world fall into a few hearts, and nothing has ever struck me as more beautiful.

The whole world, for example, seemed to fall into the heart of Mahatma Gandhi, not only on the day he said, “I am a Christian, I am a Hindu, I am a Muslim, I am a Jew,” but on the day he proved the depth of his declaration when, after receiving two fatal bullets from a fundamentalist zealot, he blessed that zealot with a namasté before dying. For the fundamentalists of each tradition he names, Gandhi’s four-fold profession of faith is three-fourths heresy. It is also a statement I can imagine Jesus making and, for me personally, a description of spiritual terrain in which I yearn to take up permanent residence.

THE GULF BETWEEN THIS OPEN-HEARTED EVANGELISM and the aims of modern fundamentalism is vast. Most of the famed leaders of the new “Bible-based” American political alliances share a conviction that their causes and agendas are approved of, and directly inspired, by no less a being than God. This enviable conviction is less enviably arrived at by accepting on faith, hence as fact, that the Christian Bible pared down into American TV English is God’s “word” to humankind, that this same Bible is His only word to humankind, and that the politicized apocalyptic fundamentalists’ unprecedentedly selective slant on this Bible is the one true slant.

The position is remarkably self-insulating. Possessing little knowledge of or regard for the world’s wealth of religious, literary, spiritual and cultural traditions, fundamentalist leaders allow themselves no concept of love or compassion but their own. They can therefore honestly say that it is out of “Christian compassion” and a sort of “tough love” for others that they seek to impose on all others their tendentiously literalized God, Bible and slant.

But how tough can love be before it ceases to be love at all? Well-known variations on the theme include the various Inquisitions’ murderously tough love for “heretics,” who were defined as those defiant of the Inquisition itself; the European Catholic and American Puritan tough love for “witches,” who were defined as virtually any sexually active or humanitarian or unusually skilled single woman whose healing herbs or independence from men defied a male church hierarchy’s claim to be the source of all healing; the Conquistador’s genocidally tough love for the Incas, Aztecs, and Mayans whose gold they stole for the “glory” of a church meant to honor the perfect poverty of a life begun in a manger and ended on a cross; the missionaries’ and U.S. Cavalry’s genocidally tough love for land-rich indigenous peoples whose crime was merely to exist; and, today, the Bush team’s murderously tough love for an oil-rich Muslim world as likely to convert to Texas neocon values as Bush himself is likely to convert to Islam.

Each of these crusader groups has seen itself as fighting to make its own or some other culture “more Christian” even as it tramples the teachings of Christ into a blood-soaked earth. The result, among millions of non-fundamentalists, has been revulsion toward anything that chooses to call itself “Christian.” But I see no more crucial tool for defusing fundamentalist aggression than the four books of the gospels, and can think of no more crucial question to keep asking our crusaders than whether there is anything truly imitative of Jesus—that is, anything compassionate, self-abnegating, empathetic, forgiving, and enemy-loving—in their assaults on those they have determined to be “evil.”

The appropriation of Christian terminology by the American political movement known as neoconservative has resulted in a breed of believer I’m tempted to call “avengelical,” but in the interests of diplomacy will simply call right-wing. The fusion of right-wing politics and religiosity has changed America’s leadership, altered our identity in the eyes of the world, and created a mood of close-minded vehemence in millions. Critics of the right-wing/fundamentalist conflation are now often demonized not just as “traitors to America,” but as enemies of a new kind of Americanized “God.” A growing number of people of faith, however, believe that Americans are being asked to worship a bogus image of God. Though examples of this are numerous beyond count, I’ll describe two which came to my attention through the writings of the self-proclaimed evangelical Christian, Jim Wallis:

On the first anniversary of the destruction of the World Trade Center, President Bush gave a speech in New York in which he said that the “ideal of America is the hope of all mankind.” Six billion people on earth are not Americans; to call America their hope is, to put it mildly, hubristic. What’s more, anyone who places their hope not in nations but in God is obligated by their faith to find Bush’s statement untrue. But Bush’s speechwriters ratcheted the rhetoric up even further: Bush added, “That hope still lights our way. And the light shines in the darkness. And the darkness has not overcome it.” As Wallis points out in “Dangerous Religion” (Mississippi Review, Vol. 10 No. 1), these last sentences are lifted straight out of the gospel of John, where they refer not to America or any nation, but to the Word of God and the Light of Christ.

Second example: in his 2003 State of the Union address, the president said that there is “power, wonder-working power in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people”—words stolen from a hymn that in fact says there is “power, wonder-working power in the blood of the Lamb.” This thievery is breathtaking, and leaves me wondering what Bush’s speechwriters might steal next. John 1:1 perhaps? “In the beginning was America, and America was with God, and America was God…”

“The real theological problem in America today,” writes Wallis, is “the nationalist religion… that confuses the identity of the nation with the church, and God’s purposes with the mission of American empire. America’s foreign policy is more than preemptive, it is theologically presumptuous; not only unilateral, but dangerously messianic; not just arrogant, but… blasphemous.”

I would add the Bush administration’s notion of stewardship to Wallis’s list of blasphemies. To describe the Bush team’s war on nature as “stewardship” is to forsake the Bible. In Genesis, men and women are made in the image of the God who just created and blessed all creatures and their ability to multiply, and Adam is placed in Eden merely “to dress it and keep it.” In Exodus, the Sabbath rest is given to animals as well as humans. In Leviticus, humans are told by God to tend the land carefully, and not possessively, because, “the land is mine, and you are but aliens who have become my tenants.” Then in the gospels we meet, in Jesus, a leader who refused political power and defines dominion as “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven,” a king of kings whose life is characterized throughout by sensitivity to the meek, the weak, the poor, birds, field lilies, the voiceless, and all other forms of life.

American fundamentalists, despite avowed love for this same Jesus, predominately support a Bush administration that has worked to weaken the Clear Air and Clean Water Acts and gut the Endangered Species and Environmental Policy Acts; this administration has stopped fining air and water polluters, dropped all suits against coal-fired power, weakened limits on pollutants that destroy ozone, increased the amount of mercury in the air and water, vowed to drill in the Arctic wildlife sanctuary, stopped citizen review of logging proposals in the people’s own forests—the list goes on and on. I wish that none of it were true. I wish that devastation, extinctions, ever-more-powerful hurricanes, epidemic diseases and cancers were not raining down upon us as I write. But since they are, I must ask: how Christian is the cunning of speechwriters who place words meant to praise God, or Christ’s spilled blood, in the mouth of a man who instead uses them to exalt an empire born of the destruction of America’s own ecosystems, civility, and honesty?

The manipulators who convert the very “blood of the Lamb” into the phrase “the American people” force people of faith to make a call: to treat the earth as disposable and the Bible as “God,” turn that God into a political action committee, equate arrogance and effrontery with evangelism, right-wing politics with worship, aggression with compassion, devastation with stewardship, disingenuous televised prattle with prayer, and call the result Christianity, is, according to the teachings of Jesus, not an enviable position, but a fatal one.

CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN FUNDAMENTALISM is more a manufactured product, or even an industrial by-product, than a result of careful reflection. Those of us struggling to defend ravaged ecosystems, demonized Muslims, biologically-betrayed children, vanished compassion, and every other casualty of neocon-fundamentalist rhetoric are dealing with end results, not primary cause. We might do better to shift our attention to the fundamentalist machinery itself.

The “Christian Right’s” fully-automated evangelical machine runs twenty-four hours a day—like McDonald’s, Coca Cola and Exxon-Mobil—making converts globally. But to what? The conversion industry’s notion of the word Christian has substituted a “Rapture Index” and Armageddon fantasy for Christ’s interior kingdom of heaven and love of neighbor; it is funded by donors lured by a televangelical “guarantee” of “a hundredfold increase on all financial donations,” as if Mark 10:30 were an ad for a financial pyramid scheme and Jesus never said, “Sell all thou hast and distribute it unto the poor”; it has replaced once-personal relationships between parishioners and priests or preachers with radio and TV bombast, sham healings, and congregation-fleecing scams performed by televangelical rock stars; it has trumped worship characterized by ancient music, reflective thought and silent prayer with three-ring media-circuses and Victory Campaigns; it inserts veritable lobbyists in its pulpits and political brochures in its pews, claims that both speak for Jesus, and raises millions for this Jesus, though its version of Him preaches neocon policies straight out of Washington think tanks and spends most of “His” money on war; it quotes Mark 10:15 and Matthew 5:44 and Matthew 6:6 and Luke 18: 9-14 a grand total of never; it revels in its election of a violent, historically ignorant, science-flaunting, carcinogenic-policied president who goads us toward theocracy at home even as he decries theocracies overseas; it defies cooperation and reason in governance, exults in division, and hastens the degeneration of a democracy built upon cooperation and reason; it claims an exclusive monopoly on truth (”America is the hope of all mankind…”) yet trivializes truth globally by evincing ignorance of Christianity’s historic essence and disrespect toward the world’s ethnic and religious diversity and astonishingly rich cultural present and past.

To refer to peregrinating Celtic monks and fundamentalist lobbyists, Origen and Oral Roberts, the Desert Fathers and Tim La Haye, Jerry Falwell and Dante, St. Francis and the TV “prosperity gospel” hucksters, Lady Julian of Norwich and Tammy Faye Baker, or John of the Cross and George W. Bush all as Christian stretches the word so thin its meaning vanishes. The term “carbon-based life-form” is as informative. Though it may shock those who equate fundamentalism and Christianity, ninety years ago the term “fundamentalist” did not exist. The term was coined by an American Protestant splinter-group which, in 1920, proclaimed that adhering to “the literal inerrancy of the Bible” was the true Christian faith. The current size of this group does not change the aberrance of its stance: deification of the mere words of the Bible, in light of every scripture-based wisdom tradition including Christianity’s two-thousand-year-old own, is not just naiveté: it is idolatry.

This, in all sincerity, is why fundamentalists need connections to, and the compassion of, those who are no such thing. How can those lost in literalism save one another? As Max Weber once put it: “We [Christians] are building an iron cage, and we’re inside of it, and we’re closing the door. And the handle is on the outside.”

Every fundamentalist who believes there is just one Holy Book is ignoring the fact that the Christian Bible, Quran, Torah and Vedas are each considered to be that one Book, and the God of each faith has become the Empowerer of millions of potentially violent literalists. The proponents of all four faiths consider themselves chosen, they’re all armed with nuclear weapons, and the zealots of each faith are prepared to kill in defense of their chosenness. This is why each faith stands in need not of a turning away from tradition, but of a compassion rebellion against the presumptuous “certainties” of the zealots within each tradition, and a universal recognition of the fact that the sigh within the prayer is the same in the heart of the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu and the Jew.

There is, for most humans born on earth, just one mother tongue, and a given tongue at a given time consists of only so many words. These words can absorb only so many abuses before they cease to mean. America’s spiritual vocabulary—with its huge defining terms such as “God,” “soul,” “sacrifice,” “mysticism,” “faith,” “salvation,” “grace,” “redemption”—has been enduring a series of abuses so constricting that the damage may last for centuries. Too many of us have tried to sidestep this damage by simply rejecting the terminology. But the defamation of a religious vocabulary cannot be undone by turning away: the harm is undone when we work to reopen each word’s true history, nuance and depth. Holy words need stewardship as surely as do gardens, orchards or ecosystems. When lovingly tended, such words surround us with spaciousness and mystery the way a sacred grove surrounds us with peace and oxygenated air. But when we abandon our holy words and fail to replace them, we end up living in a spiritual clearcut.

If Americans of European descent are to understand and honor the legacy of Celtic, European, Middle Eastern and other Christian traditions and pass our literature, music, art, monasticism and mysticism on intact, the right-wing hijacking of Christianity must be defined as the reductionist rip-off that it is. To allow televangelists or pulpit neocons to claim exclusive ownership of Jesus is to hand that incomparable lover of enemies, prostitutes, foreigners, field lilies, children and fishermen over to those who evince no such love.

The God of politically-organized fundamentalism, as advertised daily by a vast array of media, is a Supramundane Caucasian Male as furious with humanity’s failure to live by a few lines from Leviticus as He is oblivious to the “Christian” right’s failure to live the compassion of the gospels and earth-stewardship of both testaments. As surely as I feel love and need for food and water, I feel love and need for God. But these feelings have nothing to do with Supramundane Males planning torments for those who don’t abide by neocon “moral values.” I hold the evangelical truth of our situation to be that contemporary politicized fundamentalists, including first and foremost those aimed at Empire and Armageddon, need us non-fundamentalists, mystics, ecosystem activists, unprogrammable artists, agnostic humanitarians, incorrigible writers, truth-telling musicians, incorruptible scientists, organic gardeners, slow food farmers, gay restaurateurs, wilderness visionaries, pagan preachers of sustainability, compassion-driven entrepreneurs, heartbroken Muslims, grief-stricken children, loving believers, loving disbelievers, peace-marching millions, and the One who loves us all in such a huge way that it is not going too far to say: they need us for their salvation.

As Mark Twain pointed out over a century ago, the only truly prominent community that fundamentalists have so far established in any world, real or imaginary, is hell.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 08:28:22 AM by thebalvenie » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2011, 07:03:00 PM »

lovely book you wrote, but it has what to do with the goals of radical Islam?  

if you want to sit naked in a field and commune with wood nymphs, go for it.  if that makes you feel spiritual, i don't care.

i do care that there is a group, well finance and well armed, who are announcing their plans an goals.  we need to listen and understand what they are saying.  since they have taken steps toward achieving their goal, we need to believe that they believe what they are saying.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2011, 07:11:09 PM »

if you want to sit naked in a field and commune with wood nymphs, go for it.  if that makes you feel spiritual, i don't care.

Didn't bother reading the novel, but that is hilarious! lau
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2011, 07:38:59 PM »

"Sit naked in a field with wood nymphs"....You got cameras on me or something? grin

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2011, 07:44:07 PM »

was kind of thinking about the strip dances i have done out in my field when i get a bee up my jeans. of course, i wasn't communing with wood nymphs, i was drawing on my inner Marine and his/her vocabulary.  i wear boots now.....

i did not mean for my comment to sound unkind.  i just fail to see how that info and the bush rant have any bearing on the issue. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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Vote Ron Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!


« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2011, 08:07:24 PM »

boy kathyp
you're a real peach

i'm not even sure why i bother sharing or coming here....

i'd love an apology but i guess that'd be too much to expect.

i didn't write it....it's an essay called "What fundamentalist need for their salvation" by david james duncan

RULE 2) BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.

If you don't agree with someone's view, EXPRESS your views rather than tear down theirs. You have the option on EVERY POST to report that post to Moderators, use this to quickly make us aware of a possible problem, we will take it from there.

Be kind to other members, do not put them down, bait them into fighting or do anything to create a fight whether in open forum or private messaging. Trashing another member will surely lead you toward the banishment door quickly. New members are expected to abide by the same rules as seasoned members. We believe that Ignorance of a rule is NO excuse to break it – you are expected to read the bylaws and strictly abide by them.
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 08:16:43 PM »

if you didn't write it, i don't owe you an apology.  if you didn't write it, i can't be tearing you down.  why didn't you write your own opinion?  in fact, going back over it, i can't tell if it's yours or was written by someone else.

i stand by what i posted.  it has no bearing on the subject.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 08:34:11 PM »

well I read about one third of it and decided it was something he cut/paste and started looking to see if it was credited to someone else.

And it wasn't.

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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2011, 09:37:04 PM »

i'm sorry about that guys

i know better and thought the tagline/credit had been posted

looking up it hadn't been....but hardly calls for being a jerk on your parts....

but whatever
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2011, 10:00:31 PM »

Quote
but hardly calls for being a jerk on your parts

ok...i am willing to learn.  understanding that i thought the post was your writing, what part of my response did you think was jerky?

and...in return, and also for my education, what part of what you posted did you believe was relevant?  perhaps i just missed your point.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2011, 10:19:32 PM »

Reading back through all the posts I don't find any jerk parts at all, except yours thebalvenie. Kathy posted a reference to a video dealing with Islamic intent. You provided a condemnation of all religions through a dialogue by a non-credited author. You are allowed to start your own condemnation thread so why intrude on a post unrelated to your own philosophy?
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2011, 11:16:55 PM »

Well duh!!

Isn't it obvious!  The venom and violence breaking out in this fundamentalist christian nation is EVERY BIT AS BAD as the violence that is breaking out in the fundamentalist muslim nations!!

The parallels are obvious!

Well, gotta run, I've got a few churches to bomb.  I'm such a fundamentalist christian that I'm even going to do MY OWN church!!

And then I'm going to blow MYSELF up!  YAY!  (or should I say Hallellallallalllallalallujah!!!!)


</sarc off>
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Rick
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 12:12:37 AM »

Can we send a bunch of stale loompies to the Iran in return for some wood nymphs?

It seems like most of the civilized world recognizes that nuclear and nuts (religious or not) is not a good combination but we never take action.  I really hope Israel wakes up and realizes we’re not going to do anything and they need to act like they did in Iraq and Syria before it’s too late.  I don’t think it wise to re-test the MAD strategy with a bunch of radical mullahs in Tehran.
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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2011, 12:19:51 AM »

Wood nymphs wearing burkas kinda kills the fun.

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2011, 12:23:27 AM »

i think i understand the above rants on religion from the above two, but it misses the point.  what we believe, or have believed, or has been done, doesn't matter.  understanding what they believe and where they are headed, does.

you can bash Christianity, or call people "American Taliban" all you want and it makes absolutely no difference to the problem we now face.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2011, 12:40:22 AM »

Here is something I have noticed. People with no belief in a supreme being, or one that has a little faith, seems to think you can adjust your religious teachings to fit into the way the world wants it to fit.

But the strong in faith. Firm believers in their God know they can not change anything.  If your supreme being tells you to do this or that, then you will do it in order to secure your spot by his/her/its side in the after life. If you drift away one iota from what is taught then you are a sinner and have just condemned yourself to the unimaginable punishment.

So if these people are firm believers and they are told to wipe out the infidels and cause chaos then what do you suppose they will do? 
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2011, 08:38:56 AM »

my post was completely relevant to Kathy's and CascadeBee's post.  The essay discuss christian right wing fundamentalist.....

mistakes happen and i fixed it and owned up to it. the author is credited.  i think we can now move on the the degrading and demeaning post by kathy.

i posted it...

it's fine if you all want to stand up for kathy...she appears to bee the queen know it all bee around here and you all follow her blindly.  sorry you don't like a different perspective.  it wasn't forced on you.....i shared it because i feel it was relevant.

kathy, ever since i've been on this board you come off as the most arrogant and pretentious person i've never met.  given i only have a small sample to go by, i think you're mean and petty and rude and frankly just plain closed minded. 

and after this post i will be choosing to never come back here to seek bee help or engage or share thoughts with people who are complete bleep.  my choice to not come back is based mostly in part because of you kathy and i know several people here already that have pmed me with similar sentiments....they must not feel it worth their time to let you know or you're just too heartless to care what you do and say to others.  it looks like you have made a nice niche here at beemaster and you're workers take good care of you. 

have a nice life
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