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Author Topic: Size advise needed; deep vs medium  (Read 5142 times)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2011, 11:25:26 AM »

>I hate to sound mean, but a little old lady that doesn't know how to remove a frame at a time shouldn't be keeping bees.

She would be intimidated by the number of bees in the air and the amount of time spent by the time she has moved every frame of brood to another box, which, of course, she doesn't have.  And then she would find herself with honey in shallows that she wants to give the bees for winter, which won't fit in her brood box, or wants to bait the bees up through an excluder into the super with some brood, but the brood combs don't fit in the super...
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Michael Bush
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2011, 12:00:21 PM »

I think our very clever but not so strong LOL (that's "little old lady") needs to get herself a long hive.  grin
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iddee
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2011, 01:32:35 PM »

"She would be intimidated"

Refer to my last four words you quoted.

"another box, which, of course, she doesn't have."

I, or most any other beek, would be glad to give her an old box to set them in while she is working.

In other words, there is no good reason for a hobbyist to be lifting a full deep of honey.
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2011, 02:10:27 PM »

Little Ol' Lady here.....and I have tried to keep my mouth shut, but can't do it any longer!

I can lift a full medium....and yeah, I only use mediums because they are much easier for me and "my little ol' man" helper to move around.  I only keep one hive right now because I am learning.  I have the hive on our back deck.  So basically I think I fit the situation you have been describing.

What bothers me is the sexism and bias that is rolling into some of the comments.  Maybe best to use both genders if you don't want to piss off all the LOL's who follow this forum!

....and I do hope that if I need help, one of you strong, viral, and manly beekeepers would be willing to give this little, old, weak, and somewhat angry "lady" a hand every now and then. 

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T Beek
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2011, 02:19:47 PM »

 applause applause

thomas
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2011, 02:35:00 PM »

i am amazed on how many people pick up on this "offensive" stuff.  my only thought about the LOL was that she should hit the gym.  evil

and boys....a cardboard box and a towel will do if you don't have an extra box.  there is a reason that "necessity is the MOTHER of invention.".
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2011, 03:12:16 PM »

WOW is all I can say! I seemed to have stirred up a little fight.  shocked Never intended to start that. The information I have gleaned from this one thread is substantial! Not the least of which is that lol (little old ladies) and lom (little old men) can get testy.  grin I'm really laughing. I'm 52 years young, but a work history of heavy lifting has left my back and shoulders in sad shape. That was the main reason I was looking at mediums for brood.

Several people have raised questions and reasons that speak to what for me is the core issue of interchangeability. You really don't have interchangeability between brood and honey supers, even if they are the same size. That little piece of information is something I had not thought of. The information in this thread has enabled me to make an informed decision on sizes to use. From the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. Kiss

Here is what I have decided:
Deeps for brood
Mediums for honey supers
I'm starting with a deep single, brood already started at a local commercial/supplier. I like keeping the money local. I'm starting with a single because it gets me going faster and because package bees this late are hard to come by.
I'm starting with 2 hives so I can compare the hives so if something is not "right" I have a comparison hive. I ordered my woodware today and I pick it up on Wednesday. Bees and the singles should be ready in early May. That gives me enough time to put everything together, get it painted, and aired out.

It is obvious that we have a dedicated and passionate group of people on the forum. Thank you all for your input, and insight.
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2011, 03:16:55 PM »

applause applause

thomas

 applause applause

There's plenty of bias and sexism, partly because beekeeping has traditionally been a male pursuit.  That has been reinforced by the fact that hive bodies are so heavy.  But now many young women (like my daughter) are getting into bees.  And urban beekeeping is expanding rapidly.  Beekeeping is not just for rural old white guys (like me) anymore.  And that's a good thing.  grin
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2011, 04:16:56 PM »

Sorry, Gail, but your train is on the wrong track. I'm not sexest, but I'm even more NOT pc.
At 65 years old I don't plan to become pc. If you can lift a medium full of honey, you can lift a deep full of brood.
As I said above, there is no reason for a hobbyist to ever lift a deep full of honey, and with one hive, I don't think I would call you a commercial beek.

PS. At 65, with arthritis, bad back, bad lungs, and two bad hips, I can still carry a deep of honey if I don't have to bend over.
Like Kathy says, maybe it's time for a trip to the gym.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2011, 07:59:12 PM »

iddee; And then 'I'm' told (by you) to be more careful huh Give us a break.  Do you even read what you post?  I have, every single one shocked

FRAMEshift; There have been women beeks for thousands of years.  

Agreed; there's no reason a hobbiest beek ever has to pick up a deep full of honey, especially if using only mediums grin

thomas
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 07:24:00 AM by T Beek » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2011, 09:55:23 PM »

I use all 8 frame mediums and would never go back.  Don in Lula says the bees like them better because the smaller space is more like a tree! 

Seriously I wish someone had told me before I ordered my first equipment how much I would regret the shallows and the deeps.  I like the lighter weight, but for me, since I don't use a queen excluder, the best reason to have your hive boxes all the same size is the ability to move frames around.  If there's brood in a medium I want to harvest, I simply move the frame into another (medium) brood box.

I've traded all my shallows for mediums and keep a couple of deeps around in the event I want to buy a nuc.  Even then when the colony moves up over the winter, I can't wait to take that deep off and replace it with a medium

Linda T in Atlanta

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2011, 06:13:02 AM »

I had them in deeps and shallows for 28 years.  I changed over to all mediums and loved it.  I changed over to all eight frame mediums and loved it more.  I had to cut down a LOT of equipment to get there and not only did I think it's a good idea if all you have to do is buy the equipment, it's worth the effort to cut down every single frame and box to both medium and eight frame.  I wish I had done it from the start.

I'm not a woman.  I'm not THAT old, but when I started, I thought nothing of moving 90 pound deeps around (I was a 20 year old carpenter and lifted that much on a regular basis).  I'm not a carpenter anymore.  I'm also not 20 anymore.  I still have some of those boxes.  They are a long term investment.

Then there is the observation that they winter better.  And the uniform frame size issues.  And then  there is not needing five frame nuc boxes because an eight frame box is already the volume of an five frame deep and THEN there is the wonderful fallout that I can easily work through a yard and split by the box without ever looking for brood or a queen.

I can't imagine ever going back.  If I inherited a bunch of ten frame deeps I would cut them all down again.

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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2011, 07:21:01 AM »

THEN there is the wonderful fallout that I can easily work through a yard and split by the box without ever looking for brood or a queen.

This is actually the coolest part.  It's the one fact that makes me even consider 8 frame medium Langs compared to long hives.  The first time I envisioned dealing out boxes like a deck of cards, I just sat stunned for a moment and asked myself, "Why didn't I think of that?"    grin
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T Beek
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2011, 07:29:35 AM »

FRAMEshift;  Agreed, I have also wrestled w/ this decision, but I do enjoy working both types so will stay with them awhile yet.  I'm also methodically changing my 10 frame supers into 8 frame supers by using movable (and insulated) follower boards.

thomas
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:59:26 AM by T Beek » Logged

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2011, 04:07:44 AM »

Splitting by the box is a wonderful thing.  With eight frame mediums you can so easily distribute the resources pretty evenly with no effort other than moving the boxes, that it revolutionized how many hives I can manage.  Literally.  I doubled the number of my hives.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2011, 09:12:34 AM »

Michael, on your website you list things you didn't invent.  http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotinvented.htm

"Using all mediums" is on the list and "8 frame boxes" is on the list but I don't see "splitting by the box".  I know you are a humble guy, but for the sake of historical accuracy (since I think this is an important advance in beekeeping), was this an original idea with you?  If not, who first suggested it?

If anyone is considering large scale beekeeping and does not understand what splitting by the box means, I suggest taking the time to consider it carefully. 
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2011, 11:32:20 AM »

I'm sure a lot of people have "split by the box" with deeps.  It just isn't very reliable with deeps.  If you make sure you have four eight frame mediums full of bees during the buildup it is very reliable.  It's too obvious an idea to be "invented" isn't it?

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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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FRAMEshift
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« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2011, 12:33:00 PM »

I'm sure a lot of people have "split by the box" with deeps.  It just isn't very reliable with deeps.  If you make sure you have four eight frame mediums full of bees during the buildup it is very reliable.

I'm thinking of probability theory here. You are essentially doing sampling at the box level.  If you have enough boxes (enough samples) you get a statistically representative split just by random (or alternating) allocation of resources.   I've watched video of Dee Lusby splitting deeps very rapidly, but she is not doing it blind.  She still has to pull frames and take time to make decisions.  
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It's too obvious an idea to be "invented" isn't it?

Everything looks obvious after you invent it.   grin   The first I heard about it was from you and I was stunned by the cleverness of it.  Thanks for sharing a very useful technique.  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 03:14:41 PM by FRAMEshift » Logged

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2011, 03:44:19 AM »

Well, I didn't learn it from someone else, but that doesn't mean someone didn't beat me to it.  Smiley

I made a lot of things I'd never seen only to find out someone else had already done it.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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T Beek
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2011, 07:43:03 AM »

And it stings for just a 'little' bit when you realise someone already did it better Wink.  Just the same, I don't want to miss the oportunity to thank you Michael for all your efforts.

thomas
Well, I didn't learn it from someone else, but that doesn't mean someone didn't beat me to it.  Smiley

I made a lot of things I'd never seen only to find out someone else had already done it.

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