Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
July 25, 2014, 05:21:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat(1)  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Size advise needed; deep vs medium  (Read 4508 times)
wisnewbee
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 42


Location: Wausau, Wisconsin, USA


« on: March 27, 2011, 11:45:53 AM »

I'm brand new to beekeeping and would like a little advise. Since I am brand new, I'm going to be starting with all new equipment. I've read books and some forums regarding the use of deeps for the brood hive, and shallows for honey supers. I noticed several references and recommendations to standardise the size and just use mediums for everything. I know 2 deeps equal 3 mediums, and 3 shallows equal 2 mediums. I am concerned about the weight of the deeps, so you can understand my interest in standardising with mediums. Are there any issues of concern in regards to standardising to just 1 size? I know that it will cost a little more to just use mediums, but I don't believe that to be a major issue. I also see a huge difference in the cost of supers and frames from 1 supplier to another. Is it really necessary to buy top of the line supers and frames? Does it make a difference to the bees if the wood is #1 clear pine or #2 select pine? I live in central Wisconsin, so our winters can be long and harsh. If you were to start beekeeping now, with the knowledge you have, what equipment would you use?

The only big advantage I see so far for staying with deeps for brood, is the ability to get a nuc package for startup. Thanks for any and all advise you may bee able to impart my way.

wisnewbee
Logged
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »

I think standardizing on one size is a good idea.  Mediums can be used for brood with no problems and are also ok for honey supers.  Deeps are pretty heavy..... A 10 frame deep full of honey weighs about 90 pounds!  Even better would be to standardize on 8 frame mediums to reduce the weight further.  

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm  

We use all long hives (horizontal) but if we were going to use Langstroth hives they would be 8 frame mediums.

 As far as nucs go, you can purchase one shallow ,stack it on top of a medium  and hang the deep nuc frames along with some medium frames from the top box until you get enough medium frames drawn.  Then phase out the deep frames and pull off the shallow.

There is a difference in quality of boxes and there is some junk out there.  The grade of pine is not as important as the quality of the box construction.  Whatever you use, be sure to stain or paint the wood right from the start.  That will greatly increase the useful life of the woodware.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 12:23:03 PM by FRAMEshift » Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2011, 01:24:10 PM »

""A 10 frame deep full of honey weighs about 90 pounds! ""

I see this all the time, and it makes me wonder. How many hobbyist beeks out there have ever seen a deep totally full of honey?

I recommend deeps for brood and mediums for honey. When I was in my 30s and 40s I used all deeps. Then I saw full honey deeps. After 50, I use deeps for brood and mediums for honey and have not seen a deep full of honey since then.

PS. A deep full of brood does NOT weigh 90 lbs.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
AllenF
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8104

Location: Hiram, Georgia


« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2011, 01:51:22 PM »

I use deeps for all my brood boxes.  Don't have a problem with them.     Shallows for honey supers. 
Logged
AR Beekeeper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 74

Location: Mountain View, Stone Co., Arkansas


« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2011, 02:09:04 PM »

My deeps of brood usually weigh about 65 pounds, not much more than a medium full of honey.  The top deep acts as the food chamber for the colony and it is usually full at the close of the nectar flow but if you use work stands to put the boxes on when doing inspections they are not too hard to handle.

The only drawback I see to all mediums is higher cost in boxes and frames to set the colony up and a little longer time to inspect the colony.  Using 10 frame mediums in your area, would 3 boxes be enough for overwintering or would 4 be better? 

The less expensive grades of wood usually doesn't matter as long as you don't buy the very bottom grade, #2 or #3 pine is Ok.
Logged
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2011, 02:16:43 PM »

When I was in my 30s and 40s I used all deeps. Then I saw full honey deeps. After 50, I use deeps for brood and mediums for honey and have not seen a deep full of honey since then.

PS. A deep full of brood does NOT weigh 90 lbs.

Since the OP was interested in standardizing on one size, I was looking at the worst case of standardizing on deeps.  If he was using only deeps as honey supers, I think he would eventually be lifting 90 pounds.  I'm 59 and have had some sciatica so even a deep that's half full of honey is more stress than I want placed over and over on my back.   Even a 10 frame medium full of honey lifted from ground level is pretty bad.

Iddee, do see some problem with using only mediums?  They work fine for brood don't they?
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
AllenF
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8104

Location: Hiram, Georgia


« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2011, 02:51:24 PM »

If you run all med boxes, and you medicate, you will have to keep your brood box frames separate from your super boxes forever.  To keep contaminating the honey super wax.
Logged
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2011, 04:05:32 PM »

Three mediums cost more than two deeps.
Most treatments are measured out for deeps.
Most nucs are sold in deeps.
Most damage to backs is done during bending, rather then carrying. I would rather lift and carry one 60 lb box "2 bends" then 2 trips at 45 lb each."4 bends"

I have removed many colonies of ferals and have never seen horizontal bee spaces in the middle of the combs, like different boxes give, so I like to use a minimum number of breaks in the comb. That's why I used all deeps when younger.

Also, with a two frame extractor, I would rather extract 20 deeps than 30 mediums.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
sc-bee
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1863


Location: Edgefield, SC


« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2011, 04:23:26 PM »

All medium- eight frame- everything fits. It definitely makes moving brood around easier. If you have multiple yards and show up with one size equipment (if all mediums) you show up with the right size grin Not so with a mixture of different size boxes Sad   The equipment will cost more- depends on the number of hives you keep.

You already are aware of the down side of purchasing nucs. If the $ is no issue go with mediums.
I run deeps for brood and shallow for honey. I would go with all mediums if i had it to do over again.
Logged

John 3:16
tandemrx
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 241

Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin


« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2011, 06:38:11 PM »

I am with Iddee.  I like the idea of bigger brood areas, but with a bad back I am seriously considering moving to 8 frame equipment (will still use deeps and a mixture of mediums and shallow for supers).  Plus, when doing inspections you might have to re-stack 3 boxes instead of just 2 - that is just more bees getting smooshed  Sad.  I do like that with deeps and mediums I know which frames might have had terramycin or other treatments dumped on top of the frames and that all my mediums or shallows are dedicated to honey collection.

I guess if you make your own nuc (which you may well want to do sometime, if nothing else from a caught swarm, or managing a split or a bunch of other reasons), you could just do it in a 10-frame or 8-frame medium, which I have done, but I like the idea of a 4-5 frame deep nuc for these purposes.  I always keep one of those 5-frame deep cardboard nuc boxes handy for a swarm collection or split or transferring brood frames somewhere.  Awful handy and light - easy to carry without having to deal with separate bottom board.  I don't think anyone makes medium cardboard nuc boxes, but not positive.

So, I still think that an 8-frame deep offers best of both worlds.

It is moving those supers that is the biggest job - you often don't go far with your deeps (unless they are empty  Cry)

You use a frame for brood and they fill it full of pollen and then using those frames for supers is not ideal by any means - so frames aren't always totally interchangeable.

Quote
Three mediums cost more than two deeps.
Most treatments are measured out for deeps.
Most nucs are sold in deeps.
Most damage to backs is done during bending, rather then carrying. I would rather lift and carry one 60 lb box "2 bends" then 2 trips at 45 lb each."4 bends"

I have removed many colonies of ferals and have never seen horizontal bee spaces in the middle of the combs, like different boxes give, so I like to use a minimum number of breaks in the comb. That's why I used all deeps when younger.

Also, with a two frame extractor, I would rather extract 20 deeps than 30 mediums.
Logged
wisnewbee
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 42


Location: Wausau, Wisconsin, USA


« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2011, 08:31:44 PM »

I thank you all for your timely, and informative answers. You have made the decision much easier for me. I've decided that there is a reason the deep/shallow arrangement is the standard. I will also be using that arrangement. My main considerations were the nuc and extraction issues. Great information everybody.

Wisnewbee
Logged
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2011, 08:40:04 PM »

I use all 8 frame mediums, nothing but, but then I also use bottomless hives.  I never have to worry about where to put an extra frame when transferring brood or stores between hives.  If one is inclinded to make their own equipment you get more 8 frame boxes out of a given footage of 8 inch lumber than 10 frame and those odd pieces make nice ends for nucs.

If and when I buy commercial I buy budget (2nds) over premium or commercial grades.  A hobbiest doesn't give his equipment the same beating a commercial beekeeper does his, and so it well last just as long or longer.  You can usually buy 3 budget boxes to 2 commercials and about 2boxes budget for 1 box premium.  The ratio might vary a little bit. 

I've had budget pine boxes last well over a dozen years so I don't consider the expense of more expensive grades worth the cost.  So, as I see it, the only reason for buying the high grade stuff is astetics and if you're into astetics then you're probably into copper clad garden tops.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2011, 09:33:17 PM »

There is a difference in mediums and shallows. I would go with mediums, not shallows. You can find wired wax easier and you get a larger harvest per box. Shallows are used mostly for comb honey, mediums for extracted honey.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2011, 01:40:38 AM »

>PS. A deep full of brood does NOT weigh 90 lbs.

But sooner or later it will be full of honey.  I have met many a frustrated older woman who bought bees for her garden and now are at a loss what to do because they have a deep full of honey on top and they don't know what to do.

That's not counting the men I know with bad backs from lifting deeps...

But uniformity is the main reason to use all mediums.

Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2011, 06:54:15 AM »

I hate to sound mean, but a little old lady that doesn't know how to remove a frame at a time shouldn't be keeping bees. There's no reason for a hobbyist to ever have to lift a full deep. A commercial beek should be in shape and/or have hired help if he is using all deeps.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2011, 09:22:24 AM »

The ability to use Interchangeable equipment is a true blessing. 

I use ALL mediums (in my Langs and my Long Hive) and I know some beeks out west who use ALL shallows. 

Since some who have posted above obviously haven't experienced the luxury of using the same size equipment I'm not sure what the debate is or why they even pitch in Undecided

Personally, I don't know a single beek who has gone back to variable size boxes once they've switched (or used) to universal size boxes.  I've only got a couple deeps left, and I use those just for housing caught swarms or as a feed box.

thomas
Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2011, 10:14:51 AM »

""Since some who have posted above obviously haven't experienced the luxury of using the same size equipment I'm not sure what the debate is or why they even pitch in""

I take this to mean anyone who doesn't agree with you should just shut up and not post. Is that your meaning?
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2011, 10:27:46 AM »

iddee;  Not at all, I think I said it plain enough.  I'm not looking for a fight with you either, so if its your intention please look elsewhere. 

If I somehow misunderstood your assertions above then I apologize, perhaps a more in-depth explanation of your preferred methods would come across differently.  I'm just asking iddee,  I'm NOT telling (and I think you've been around here long enough to know the difference Wink)

thomas
Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15027


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2011, 10:49:17 AM »

there are advantages to using all one size.  all mentioned above.  however, i use my deeps a lot for swarm catching, cutouts, etc.  much easier to move one box than several.  if your hives are going to sit in one place and you don't intend to haul boxes around for traps or swarms, one size is great.  if you are not very strong, one size (smaller) is great. 

i started with deeps for brood and have continued.  i don't have a problem moving them and if that's all you use for brood, then interchanging frames is not an issue.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2011, 11:17:52 AM »

Thomas, you need to remember that you are talking to people from those who have never had bees to those with thousands of hives. When you said  "why they even pitch in", I feel you caused some of the thinner skinned ones to decide to just quit posting. You don't bother me, as I'm too thick skinned to let it get to me, but many on here aren't. Just look at the number of members and the number of ACTIVE members. That says many have left. Some likely left due to just such posts.

Please be more careful. Print is easily misunderstood.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2011, 11:25:26 AM »

>I hate to sound mean, but a little old lady that doesn't know how to remove a frame at a time shouldn't be keeping bees.

She would be intimidated by the number of bees in the air and the amount of time spent by the time she has moved every frame of brood to another box, which, of course, she doesn't have.  And then she would find herself with honey in shallows that she wants to give the bees for winter, which won't fit in her brood box, or wants to bait the bees up through an excluder into the super with some brood, but the brood combs don't fit in the super...
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2011, 12:00:21 PM »

I think our very clever but not so strong LOL (that's "little old lady") needs to get herself a long hive.  grin
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2011, 01:32:35 PM »

"She would be intimidated"

Refer to my last four words you quoted.

"another box, which, of course, she doesn't have."

I, or most any other beek, would be glad to give her an old box to set them in while she is working.

In other words, there is no good reason for a hobbyist to be lifting a full deep of honey.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
gailmo
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 53

Location: Columbia, Missouri


« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2011, 02:10:27 PM »

Little Ol' Lady here.....and I have tried to keep my mouth shut, but can't do it any longer!

I can lift a full medium....and yeah, I only use mediums because they are much easier for me and "my little ol' man" helper to move around.  I only keep one hive right now because I am learning.  I have the hive on our back deck.  So basically I think I fit the situation you have been describing.

What bothers me is the sexism and bias that is rolling into some of the comments.  Maybe best to use both genders if you don't want to piss off all the LOL's who follow this forum!

....and I do hope that if I need help, one of you strong, viral, and manly beekeepers would be willing to give this little, old, weak, and somewhat angry "lady" a hand every now and then. 

Logged
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2011, 02:19:47 PM »

 applause applause

thomas
Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15027


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2011, 02:35:00 PM »

i am amazed on how many people pick up on this "offensive" stuff.  my only thought about the LOL was that she should hit the gym.  evil

and boys....a cardboard box and a towel will do if you don't have an extra box.  there is a reason that "necessity is the MOTHER of invention.".
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
wisnewbee
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 42


Location: Wausau, Wisconsin, USA


« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2011, 03:12:16 PM »

WOW is all I can say! I seemed to have stirred up a little fight.  shocked Never intended to start that. The information I have gleaned from this one thread is substantial! Not the least of which is that lol (little old ladies) and lom (little old men) can get testy.  grin I'm really laughing. I'm 52 years young, but a work history of heavy lifting has left my back and shoulders in sad shape. That was the main reason I was looking at mediums for brood.

Several people have raised questions and reasons that speak to what for me is the core issue of interchangeability. You really don't have interchangeability between brood and honey supers, even if they are the same size. That little piece of information is something I had not thought of. The information in this thread has enabled me to make an informed decision on sizes to use. From the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. Kiss

Here is what I have decided:
Deeps for brood
Mediums for honey supers
I'm starting with a deep single, brood already started at a local commercial/supplier. I like keeping the money local. I'm starting with a single because it gets me going faster and because package bees this late are hard to come by.
I'm starting with 2 hives so I can compare the hives so if something is not "right" I have a comparison hive. I ordered my woodware today and I pick it up on Wednesday. Bees and the singles should be ready in early May. That gives me enough time to put everything together, get it painted, and aired out.

It is obvious that we have a dedicated and passionate group of people on the forum. Thank you all for your input, and insight.
Logged
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2011, 03:16:55 PM »

applause applause

thomas

 applause applause

There's plenty of bias and sexism, partly because beekeeping has traditionally been a male pursuit.  That has been reinforced by the fact that hive bodies are so heavy.  But now many young women (like my daughter) are getting into bees.  And urban beekeeping is expanding rapidly.  Beekeeping is not just for rural old white guys (like me) anymore.  And that's a good thing.  grin
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5901

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2011, 04:16:56 PM »

Sorry, Gail, but your train is on the wrong track. I'm not sexest, but I'm even more NOT pc.
At 65 years old I don't plan to become pc. If you can lift a medium full of honey, you can lift a deep full of brood.
As I said above, there is no reason for a hobbyist to ever lift a deep full of honey, and with one hive, I don't think I would call you a commercial beek.

PS. At 65, with arthritis, bad back, bad lungs, and two bad hips, I can still carry a deep of honey if I don't have to bend over.
Like Kathy says, maybe it's time for a trip to the gym.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2011, 07:59:12 PM »

iddee; And then 'I'm' told (by you) to be more careful huh Give us a break.  Do you even read what you post?  I have, every single one shocked

FRAMEshift; There have been women beeks for thousands of years.  

Agreed; there's no reason a hobbiest beek ever has to pick up a deep full of honey, especially if using only mediums grin

thomas
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 07:24:00 AM by T Beek » Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
tillie
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1740


Location: Atlanta, GA

Bee in N Georgia on a Blackberry flower


WWW
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2011, 09:55:23 PM »

I use all 8 frame mediums and would never go back.  Don in Lula says the bees like them better because the smaller space is more like a tree! 

Seriously I wish someone had told me before I ordered my first equipment how much I would regret the shallows and the deeps.  I like the lighter weight, but for me, since I don't use a queen excluder, the best reason to have your hive boxes all the same size is the ability to move frames around.  If there's brood in a medium I want to harvest, I simply move the frame into another (medium) brood box.

I've traded all my shallows for mediums and keep a couple of deeps around in the event I want to buy a nuc.  Even then when the colony moves up over the winter, I can't wait to take that deep off and replace it with a medium

Linda T in Atlanta

Logged

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh


Click for Atlanta, Georgia Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2011, 06:13:02 AM »

I had them in deeps and shallows for 28 years.  I changed over to all mediums and loved it.  I changed over to all eight frame mediums and loved it more.  I had to cut down a LOT of equipment to get there and not only did I think it's a good idea if all you have to do is buy the equipment, it's worth the effort to cut down every single frame and box to both medium and eight frame.  I wish I had done it from the start.

I'm not a woman.  I'm not THAT old, but when I started, I thought nothing of moving 90 pound deeps around (I was a 20 year old carpenter and lifted that much on a regular basis).  I'm not a carpenter anymore.  I'm also not 20 anymore.  I still have some of those boxes.  They are a long term investment.

Then there is the observation that they winter better.  And the uniform frame size issues.  And then  there is not needing five frame nuc boxes because an eight frame box is already the volume of an five frame deep and THEN there is the wonderful fallout that I can easily work through a yard and split by the box without ever looking for brood or a queen.

I can't imagine ever going back.  If I inherited a bunch of ten frame deeps I would cut them all down again.

Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2011, 07:21:01 AM »

THEN there is the wonderful fallout that I can easily work through a yard and split by the box without ever looking for brood or a queen.

This is actually the coolest part.  It's the one fact that makes me even consider 8 frame medium Langs compared to long hives.  The first time I envisioned dealing out boxes like a deck of cards, I just sat stunned for a moment and asked myself, "Why didn't I think of that?"    grin
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2011, 07:29:35 AM »

FRAMEshift;  Agreed, I have also wrestled w/ this decision, but I do enjoy working both types so will stay with them awhile yet.  I'm also methodically changing my 10 frame supers into 8 frame supers by using movable (and insulated) follower boards.

thomas
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:59:26 AM by T Beek » Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2011, 04:07:44 AM »

Splitting by the box is a wonderful thing.  With eight frame mediums you can so easily distribute the resources pretty evenly with no effort other than moving the boxes, that it revolutionized how many hives I can manage.  Literally.  I doubled the number of my hives.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2011, 09:12:34 AM »

Michael, on your website you list things you didn't invent.  http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotinvented.htm

"Using all mediums" is on the list and "8 frame boxes" is on the list but I don't see "splitting by the box".  I know you are a humble guy, but for the sake of historical accuracy (since I think this is an important advance in beekeeping), was this an original idea with you?  If not, who first suggested it?

If anyone is considering large scale beekeeping and does not understand what splitting by the box means, I suggest taking the time to consider it carefully. 
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2011, 11:32:20 AM »

I'm sure a lot of people have "split by the box" with deeps.  It just isn't very reliable with deeps.  If you make sure you have four eight frame mediums full of bees during the buildup it is very reliable.  It's too obvious an idea to be "invented" isn't it?

Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2011, 12:33:00 PM »

I'm sure a lot of people have "split by the box" with deeps.  It just isn't very reliable with deeps.  If you make sure you have four eight frame mediums full of bees during the buildup it is very reliable.

I'm thinking of probability theory here. You are essentially doing sampling at the box level.  If you have enough boxes (enough samples) you get a statistically representative split just by random (or alternating) allocation of resources.   I've watched video of Dee Lusby splitting deeps very rapidly, but she is not doing it blind.  She still has to pull frames and take time to make decisions.  
Quote
It's too obvious an idea to be "invented" isn't it?

Everything looks obvious after you invent it.   grin   The first I heard about it was from you and I was stunned by the cleverness of it.  Thanks for sharing a very useful technique.  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 03:14:41 PM by FRAMEshift » Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2011, 03:44:19 AM »

Well, I didn't learn it from someone else, but that doesn't mean someone didn't beat me to it.  Smiley

I made a lot of things I'd never seen only to find out someone else had already done it.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
T Beek
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2776


Location: USA, N/W Wisconsin


« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2011, 07:43:03 AM »

And it stings for just a 'little' bit when you realise someone already did it better Wink.  Just the same, I don't want to miss the oportunity to thank you Michael for all your efforts.

thomas
Well, I didn't learn it from someone else, but that doesn't mean someone didn't beat me to it.  Smiley

I made a lot of things I'd never seen only to find out someone else had already done it.

Logged

"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."
ronwhite3030
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 218

Location: Red Bluff, CA


« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2011, 01:37:35 PM »

The Killion method for Comb honey production uses splitting by the box with deeps, I think he is a bit and by a bit I mean alot older then MB. I think his father also used it before him.
Logged
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2011, 02:08:16 PM »

The Killion method for Comb honey production uses splitting by the box with deeps, I think he is a bit and by a bit I mean alot older then MB. I think his father also used it before him.

Do you have a link to something describing how he splits by the box.  You mean that he distributes boxes randomly without regard to the contents?
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2011, 11:40:27 PM »

My point on boxes that are half the size, is that the resources are fairly evenly distributed with no effort beyond the sequence of doing every other box.  This is not true when you have deeps.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
FRAMEshift
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1681


Location: North Carolina


« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2011, 12:46:38 AM »

Michael, you mentioned that you need 4 eight frame mediums going into buildup to have a reliable "split by box".  Do you mean that you need a minimum of 4 boxes full of bees in order to split that into two hives of two boxes each?   Just how high can you stack those 8 frame mediums before they fall over?  grin
Logged

"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13567


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2011, 05:21:31 AM »

>Do you mean that you need a minimum of 4 boxes full of bees in order to split that into two hives of two boxes each?

That is best both for distributing and for "critical mass".

>   Just how high can you stack those 8 frame mediums before they fall over?

I have them all up against each other and sometimes they are higher than I can reach, but that's also why none of my stands are taller than 3 1/2".
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.723 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page July 23, 2014, 10:14:23 PM
anything