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Author Topic: Prime vs. Cast or after Swarm  (Read 6207 times)

Offline Acebird

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Prime vs. Cast or after Swarm
« on: March 05, 2011, 09:56:32 AM »
Reference:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=31227.new;topicseen#new

Can someone explain Prime vs. Cast swarm?

Thank you
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 11:23:22 PM by buzzbee »
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Offline JP

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2011, 03:51:42 PM »
Prime swarm has the mated queen


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Offline hankdog1

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2011, 03:54:14 PM »
cast swarms come after the primary are normally much smaller and have a virgin queen
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 06:40:44 PM »
Would you handle them any different if you were to catch one vs. the other?
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Offline bee-nuts

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 07:10:35 PM »
Sometimes a colony will just swarm once with the original mated queen then a new virgin will hatch, mate, and take over the job of old queen.  Other times once the original mated queen leaves with a swarm, when other virgins hatch the colony will swarm again, and again when next virgin hatches.

If you catch a swarm with a virgin you want to move it where it will go right away.  You dont want to come back in the middle of the following day ect and move the colony because the virgin may be out on a mating flight.  You also dont want to put a queen excluder on bottom of caught swarm to prevent them from absconding because you will end up with an unmated queen. 

I made the mistake of not moving a caught after cast swarm right away and had to wait for the virgin to mate.  I shook it into a hive with the plan on moving it to a yard five miles away, ended up a bears breakfast, what a waste.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2011, 08:33:58 PM »
Quote
Other times once the original mated queen leaves with a swarm, when other virgins hatch the colony will swarm again, and again when next virgin hatches.

I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch.
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2011, 08:53:46 PM »
Quote
Other times once the original mated queen leaves with a swarm, when other virgins hatch the colony will swarm again, and again when next virgin hatches.

I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch.
many things could happen--many cells could hatch at or close to same time-maybe there are cells that arent even caped yet-sometimes they keep turning out queen cells with every round of brood-RDY-B

Offline Countryboy

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2011, 08:55:50 PM »
Can someone explain Prime vs. Cast swarm?

I think the confusion arises due to poor English skills.  The word 'prime' is an adjective to describe a type of swarm, and the word 'cast' is a verb describing the action of a swarm.

A prime swarm is the first swarm a hive throws in a season.  All subsequent swarms are known as afterswarms.

A cast swarm is a swarm which the hive casts away.  Cast is synonymous with throw or thrown.


Offline bee-nuts

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2011, 09:08:30 PM »
The bees will not let queen have access to the cells if they dont want her to kill them.  The will also not allow queens to emerge until they want them too.
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2011, 10:59:28 PM »
Can someone explain Prime vs. Cast swarm?

I think the confusion arises due to poor English skills.  The word 'prime' is an adjective to describe a type of swarm, and the word 'cast' is a verb describing the action of a swarm.

A prime swarm is the first swarm a hive throws in a season.  All subsequent swarms are known as afterswarms.

A cast swarm is a swarm which the hive casts away.  Cast is synonymous with throw or thrown.


 you make them sound the same and that simply is not the case
also in this instance we are dealing with a NOUN caste   
[kast, kahst]  Show IPA
–noun
1.
Sociology .
a.
an endogamous and hereditary social group limited to persons of the same rank, occupation, economic position, etc., and having mores distinguishing it from other such groups.
caste swarms have no mated  queen--prime swarms have a mated queen --by DEFINITION a prime swarm is not the same as a caste swarm-- 8-)  RDY-B

« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 11:38:34 PM by rdy-b »

Offline JP

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2011, 12:05:35 AM »
Would you handle them any different if you were to catch one vs. the other?

Another ask ten bee keepers and get eleven different answers question.

You really don't know what you're dealing with when it comes to swarms until you are dealing with them. I prefer to shake swarms, its more fun that way, but of course you run the risk of having virgins go flighty and extend the time it takes to house them.

I routinely look for the queen/queens and cage them if I can. This is a big help in controlling the swarm's urge to leave the set up. Others use an excluder.

The swarms I catch usually only contain one queen but swarms are known to have multiple ones. Last year I had one that had two.

Your statement "I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch." is not accurate.

This apparently does take place while other times there are multiple queens within the colony before swarming ensues.

Case in point, a removal I did two years ago, I caught 9 queens all alive and well.

In early spring I routinely remove colonies whereby it is the norm to catch 3-4 queens, as such was the case last year.


...JP
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2011, 11:17:23 AM »
Quote
Another ask ten bee keepers and get eleven different answers question.

In this case I am looking for different options and then try to make a determination on which method I want to try first.

JP, so you would shake and the queen might go hippity hop good bye.  Then what?

What are the other options and pitfalls for dealing with swarms.  There should be ten others, right?
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Offline Keith13

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2011, 11:44:04 AM »
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What are the other options and pitfalls for dealing with swarms.  There should be ten others, right?

with that question it will be more than 10 I bet

Keith

Offline JP

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2011, 11:44:16 AM »
Ace, ok, don't hold me to an exact number now.  :-D

Its not that she will leave entirely but more that a virgin will go back to where the cluster is and you have to keep dealing with re-housing them, which is fine unless the swarm was situated 20' up in a tree.

I prefer to cage queens for that reason.

You could vac the swarm, place the branch in a box, set up a catch box adjacent to the swarm...

Let me mention this, based on my experience, queens will generally hold tight to where the cluster is, so it is usually prudent to physically move her or the entire branch. She usually will not leave the cluster on her own.

A catch box with a brood frame is an entire story all together and she likely will enter that, but who has a brood frame on hand unless the swarm is in their own bee yard?

As I mentioned, I prefer to shake most swarms unless they are 20' up on a branch I can cut and lower to the ground.

I enjoy shaking them and watching them orient, besides that I always look for the queen and I can't do that unless I shake them.

You could also shake them into the set up and have an excluder on so she cannot leave. This is a common enough practice as well.

One clarification: I previously mis spoke when I said caging queens could calm a swarm's urge to leave the new set up. That is not the case. They will try and leave regardless but if there is only one queen and she is caged they have no choice but to go right back into the set up. Something I routinely witness.


...JP
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2011, 11:57:46 AM »
Thanks Jp,  I bought a queen catcher but I have already read that a dummy on the end of a queen catcher is more likely to be a queen eliminator.  I got some swarm catcher pheromone too.  Is that going to result in getting the queen also or is that just for getting a bunch of bees?
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Offline JP

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2011, 12:01:28 PM »
Thanks Jp,  I bought a queen catcher but I have already read that a dummy on the end of a queen catcher is more likely to be a queen eliminator.  I got some swarm catcher pheromone too.  Is that going to result in getting the queen also or is that just for getting a bunch of bees?

Pheromone is to attract a swarm.

Just be careful you don't accidentally close the catcher on her. I like to have her run in and up one of the interior sides before closing the catcher.

Have fun!


...JP
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Offline Countryboy

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2011, 01:32:29 AM »
caste swarms have no mated  queen--prime swarms have a mated queen --by DEFINITION a prime swarm is not the same as a caste swarm

I have never heard that being a prime swarm was dependant upon having a mated queen.  I have always heard of a prime swarm as being the first (and largest) swarm from a hive.

By your analogy, what would you call a swarm that had both a mated queen, and a virgin queen in it?  What do you call 2 swarms from the same hive, one right after the other, and both containing mated queens? (but the second swarm is much smaller than the first swarm?)

It should also be noted that this thread was not discussing caste swarms versus prime swarms.  Caste and cast are different words, with different meanings.

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2011, 01:47:28 AM »
  your nit picking this -the context of the topic gives inference to the subject-
  try to get past the misspelling -and keep a open mind-RDY-B

Offline Countryboy

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2011, 10:52:52 PM »
When we communicate via written text, it is important to spell words correctly, especially if two words have similar spellings and sound the same phonetically.  Trying to read someone's mind and guess at what they were trying to say can cause problems.

the context of the topic gives inference to the subject

I disagree.  The original post referred to a thread with a post about a "cast swarm" used in the sense of a thrown swarm.  I did not see anywhere in the original post, or the thread it referred to, inferring that caste was what was intended.

and keep a open mind

It's hard to keep everything from falling out if you have an open mind.

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Prime vs. Cast swarm
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2011, 11:15:18 PM »
When we communicate via written text, it is important to spell words correctly, especially if two words have similar spellings and sound the same phonetically.  Trying to read someone's mind and guess at what they were trying to say can cause problems.

the context of the topic gives inference to the subject

I disagree.  The original post referred to a thread with a post about a "cast swarm" used in the sense of a thrown swarm.  I did not see anywhere in the original post, or the thread it referred to, inferring that caste was what was intended.

and keep a open mind

It's hard to keep everything from falling out if you have an open mind.
there is no requirement for spelling or punctuation in order to participate on this forum  :)
  countryboy you ant no ALLEN DICK and you never will be- :lol: RDY-B