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Author Topic: An ethical question  (Read 5018 times)
uglyfrozenfish
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« on: February 28, 2011, 08:56:04 PM »

Hi all,
Here is the situation.  My grandfather allows a beekeeper to keep 20 or so hives on his property during the summer(in the winter they are moved to florida or other tropical paradise.  Spoiled bees) 

I was thinking of putting a couple of swarm traps out there in case any of his bees swarmed.  I am wondering if the bees swarm are they fair game?  Should I leave well enough alone with these bees??

Just wondering what people's thoughts are. 

THanks a bunch
Lee
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AllenF
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 08:57:42 PM »

Does the beekeeper put out swarm traps or tries to catch every swarms from his hives?   If not, I think you might be ok.   You can always ask.
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 08:59:33 PM »

ask.  i put up swarm traps at my friends berry farm.  the beekeeper that brings his hives does not want to bother with swarms.  i was sure to have my friend ask before i did it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 09:19:48 PM »

Swarms are God's bees, and are fair game to whomever catches them, provided you aren't trespassing to retrieve them.

There have been laws for beekeeping for centuries.  A beekeeper owns the hive and the contents of the hive.  They do not own the bees that are not in the hive. 

If the beekeeper doesn't like you trying to catch swarms, they should manage their bees better so they don't swarm.
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 09:48:44 PM »

I think the question was, "is it ethical", not "is it legal".

It is legal, but ethical only if you ask or determine that the beek is not going to be trying to retrieve them.
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 10:14:40 PM »

A swarm trap will not incite them to swarm.  If they were my hives, I'd be ok with it but would wonder why you didn't ask first out of politeness... but swarms are fair game.
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 10:19:11 AM »

You should ask, and check your local laws.  Ontario has the Ontario Bee Act, which among other things states:

Right of owner to pursue and recover swarm
   3.  (1)  Subject to subsections (2), (3) and (4), where a swarm of bees leaves a hive, the owner of the swarm may enter upon the premises of any person and recover the swarm.  R.S.O. 1990, c. B.6, s. 3 (1).

Where owner declines to pursue swarm
   (2)  Where the owner of a swarm of bees that leaves its hive declines to pursue it and another person takes up the pursuit, such other person is subrogated to all the rights of the owner in respect of the swarm.  R.S.O. 1990, c. B.6, s. 3 (2).

Owner of premises to be notified
   (3)  Where the right to recover a swarm of bees is claimed under subsection (1) or (2), the person claiming the swarm shall notify the owner of the premises on which the swarm has settled before entering the premises and shall compensate the owner for any damage to the premises caused by the entry.  R.S.O. 1990, c. B.6, s. 3 (3).

When right of property in swarm lost
   (4)  Where a swarm of bees leaves a hive and settles in an occupied hive owned by a person other than the owner of the swarm, the owner of the swarm loses all right of property in the swarm.  R.S.O. 1990, c. B.6, s. 3 (4).



In Ontario, the swarm belongs to the original owner until/unless they give up ownership, or the swarm settles in an occupied hive owned by someone else (I didn't know that could happen).  Without their permission, if you setup swarm traps (in Ontario), technically those bees don't belong to you unless they came from a feral hive.  (How do you prove/disprove that?!?)  Oh well.

I'd talk to them and try to get their permission.  Regardless of the laws where you live, it seems the decent thing to do.

Grid.
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 11:29:23 AM »

Looks like another useless and unenforceable law.  Don't we have enough of these already?
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Grid
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 11:45:58 AM »

Not sure about the enforceability or usefulness of the law.  What is interesting is the different view of swarms.

"Swarms are God's Bees"  v.s  "Swarms are the original owner's bees and he/she has the right to recapture them."  They are livestock.  If your cows broke through a fence and wandered away, would they be mine if I threw a rope around their neck or led them into my field?

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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 12:04:15 PM »

I can easily prove the cow is mine.  Unless the original hive owner or a witness actually views the swarm leaving the hive and settling into the swarm trap, how do you prove whose bees they are?

I don't see anything in that law about the beekeepers responsibility for the swarm.    If I live next door and get a swarm that moves into the side of my house and it cost $1000 to get them removed,  is the beekeeper next door responsible to pay?
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Grid
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 02:01:19 PM »

I think I'd need a very tiny branding iron to get "This here bee belongs to Grid" burned onto every bee I own.   grin   I always took the swarm recovery portion of the Ontario Bee Act to be your "unless" clause - I, or someone, sees my hive swarm and settle on a tree/eve/whatever in my neighbour's yard, so I call them up, and come and get them.  Since they are mine, and not up for grabs, and I want them, legally the neighbour can't say no.  Very different from my finding out that a swarm is somewhere on my neighbour's property, and then demanding they let me come and get them because "they must be mine".  This is where the "prove it" and lack of enforceability come in, for sure.

Regarding damages, it does say "...and shall compensate the owner for any damage to the premises caused...", but this is in the act of retrieving the bees.  If the beekeeper does not claim the swarm, I don't know what the Bee Act says about compensating the property owner for damages/costs incurred removing them.

Anyhow, my point was not to debate the usefulness and enforceability of the Ontario Bee Act (I didn't write it, I just live with it), but to point out that not everyone agrees that swarms are always free for the taking, and that there are places that have laws governing it, whether we like it or not.  And putting all that aside, I think we can all agree that talking to the beek before trapping his/her swarms is the right and decent thing to do, whether there's a law telling you to or not.

Cheers,
Grid
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uglyfrozenfish
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 09:23:50 PM »

Ethics/Politics/Philosophy
Anything else anyone wants to discuss??

Everyone's comments are awsome.  I love it.  Entertaining and informative. 

YAY BEEMASTER!!!!!!
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 11:13:51 PM »

I would think it would be best to err on the side of caution.....or consideration. I would appreciate it if someone asked me first, just out of politeness.  Would you locate hives near a residence where you knew that one or more of the occupants were allergic? I beelieve that us beeks are generally very nice and friendly people.  Why not try to bee that way concerning swarms?
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hardwood
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 11:23:02 PM »

I bet that if you ask they will say sure. If I found hidden swarm traps around one of my yards I'd be thinking "sneaky little so-and-so" but if someone were to come to me and ask politely I would say "sure, I'd rather you get them than loose them to the bushes".

There's no way you can keep every hive from swarming (although you try). If I'm not setting traps at my own yards why not let someone who really wants the bees try?

Scott
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 07:34:05 AM »

I bet that if you ask they will say sure. If I found hidden swarm traps around one of my yards I'd be thinking "sneaky little so-and-so" but if someone were to come to me and ask politely I would say "sure, I'd rather you get them than loose them to the bushes".

There's no way you can keep every hive from swarming (although you try). If I'm not setting traps at my own yards why not let someone who really wants the bees try?

Scott

So, Hey Scott, Can I put a few traps around your bee-yard? lol
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2011, 07:39:59 AM »

Anytime Dennis grin
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2011, 08:13:09 AM »

Playing devil's advocate here.

What if you ask and he says 'NO'. 

 It is sort of like asking someone if you can walk on the sidewalk in front of their house.  By asking the question,  you are inferring they have the power to prevent you.   

I see no reason not to have a polite talk to the beekeeper and tell him what you want to do and why.  Good open communications go a long way.   But I would think twice of asking "permission" for something he rightfully has no say in.
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Grid
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2011, 08:39:14 AM »

If the local laws say that swarms are up for grabs, then asking permission, and maybe getting a NO, might be counter productive.

I'd still ask.  Smiley  I'd rather get the NO than be a bad neighbour.

Grid.
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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2011, 09:35:00 AM »

A stroll in the beeyard and a few minutes asking him questions and talking bees will be by far the best way to go.

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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2011, 04:09:41 PM »

Our local "Bigtime" commercial bee operation has around 10K hives.  He plops them down in various fields around and about for wintering.  Some of those bee yards are maintained year around.  There is one such yard a few miles from my younger borther's house.  He has made arrangements to place swarm traps (deep nucs) at various places between his place and the bee yard.  He has a good of chance catching a swarm from one of his own hives has from the commercial guys.  Either way he gets to keep what he catches because he has the property owners permission to place the swarm traps.
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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2011, 04:32:22 PM »

I think anytime you need to ask if something is ethical, you have already answered the question yourself.  Wink

As a beekeeper who has bees on other people's property, let me comment on what I ask of the property owner....

If you see my bees swarm, please understand that this is my way of keeping my numbers up, and keeping your bill lower.

If you see my bees swarm, see if you can determine which hive it came from. I need to know this and it saves me time and labor checking all the hives.

If you see my bees swarm (and this is defined as any swarm whether in flight or settled on a tree) stop and spend a dime to call me.

In return, I will among other things.....

Call you when someone left the pump on filling up the water tank and it is overflowing.

Write down that number of the car that happens into the orchard and I know they are filling up their trunk with apples.

Call you when the cows get out or anything else happens and I know it needs attention.


I had one farmer who thought calling his neighbor to let him have my swarms was the right thing to do. And I had another who collected my swarms one season so he could get into beekeeping, and would not need to pay for bees the following spring. Both those instances had me removing the bees within 24 hours.

I provide a service and can not be expected to be there to "properly manage" my bees as some suggest. But I have great relationships with my customers and they know very clearly what I expect, and what they get in return from me.  And even though they allow me to pick up drops in the orchards in the fall, I still ask every time if I can fill the truck. It's the right thing to do.

And I add one more thing.....anyone who blames a beekeeper that is was his fault through not doing his job that a swarm was issued, is just wrong in my opinion. It's a weak justification on poor ethics to suggest that a beekeeper had it coming, or was somehow worth crapping on by allowing his bees to swarm. Self justification for bad behavior...that's all that is.

Do yourself a favor, and ask the beekeeper. I bet he won't mind. And in the end, you will have done a good thing, and don't need the need to "hide" your traps or trance around wondering if he is going to show up and catch you doing something you feel in your gut you find wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2011, 11:14:20 PM »

In terms of ethics, use the inverse tense of the golden rule.  Do not unto others, as you would not have them do unto you.

anyone who blames a beekeeper that is was his fault through not doing his job that a swarm was issued, is just wrong in my opinion. It's a weak justification on poor ethics to suggest that a beekeeper had it coming, or was somehow worth crapping on by allowing his bees to swarm. Self justification for bad behavior...that's all that is.

I provide a service and can not be expected to be there to "properly manage" my bees as some suggest.


Let me get this straight.  You admit that you don't do your job (properly manage bees), yet you expect others to pick up the slack for you?  You even want them to try to figure out what hive the swarm came from?  Why don't you just let them manage your bees for you?

If you see my bees swarm, please understand that this is my way of keeping my numbers up, and keeping your bill lower.


Oh, give me a break.  That's ridiculous.  Competent beekeepers do NOT rely on swarms to keep their numbers up. (Skep beekeepers excluded.)  Competent beekeepers know that catching a swarm is unreliable.  Competent beekeepers split their hives before they swarm, which keeps their numbers up.

If you're too busy to properly manage your hives, then you accept losses due to swarming.  If I'm too busy to control weeds in my fields, I accept crop losses.  I don't expect others to help pull weeds because I am providing a service or growing food they will end up eating.  That attitude shows why the first welfare case in North America was a beekeeper. 

I am thankful for landowners who allow me to put my hives on their land, especially when they are paying me to have hives there.  I ask landowners to notify me if they happen to see problems of vandalism or theft.  I gladly notify farmers if I see fences down, gates open that are supposed to be shut, livestock out, people stealing crops, etc.  I would NEVER imply that I would not do that if a landowner didn't help me manage my hives because I was too lazy/busy to do my own job.  I do those things out of appreciation to the landowner, not in return for them helping me manage my hives.

Self justification for bad behavior...that's all that is.


The previous post is full of self justification for bad behavior by a beekeeper.
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2011, 11:41:11 PM »

i don't know any of the pollinators that care if their hives swarm or care to do anything about it.  i ask.  they say they are to busy to chase swarms.  they put their hives in the field, pull honey supers, and then take their hives home.
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 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2011, 04:53:19 AM »


Let me get this straight.  You admit that you don't do your job (properly manage bees), yet you expect others to pick up the slack for you? 

Yeah...you read that right. What part are you confused about?

I don't go round casting stones and calling each and every beekeeper a lazy bum, suggesting they did not do their job, or pointing fingers because they missed a swarm. You do, and other may, but not me. Sure I try to use good swarm management. I do what I can. But I, as well as many others, do miss a swarm from time to time.

And yes, my farmers do call me. I have a great relationship with them. They have no problems picking up the phone and giving me a call. I fail to see why you have a problem with that. Jealousy perhaps? I don't know....and could care less. Maybe your attitude plays into it.

I simply stated how I run my business. Seems that was a reason for you to get all nasty and go beyond telling your opinion, and attack my own way of doing things. I simply stated my own opinion that I do not feel that every beekeeper out there who misses a swarm, should be labled as a bad beekeeper or made to suggest they failed to do their job. I guess for a beekeeper with a few hives that are micromanaged, by a beekeeper with too much time on their hands, and the wrong attitude towards others, while casting stones, this could be expected.

The rest of your post is just a rant on weeds and other nonsense, so I'll withhold any further explanation. Most is filled with innuendos and additions to what my comments actually state.
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2011, 08:21:52 PM »

Ooh, ooh, get the gloves this could be good!  grin
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2011, 08:33:11 PM »

I think countryboy must be a CNN reporter. He sure can twist a story a million miles from it's original meaning.
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« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2011, 08:45:07 PM »

I have to agree with Bjorn i think its the right thing to do to be honest with someone and help each other out any other way it is someone taking advantage of somebody else trying  to make a living. Chasing someone else's swarm of bees is like someone going to a lobster pot and opening it up and taking some of  the lobsters out of the pot because the pot is too full.  The man is there with his bees and if the bees werent there no swarms would be there typically speaking, for the most part i just think without asking the beekeeper you arent doing the right thing.   Chris
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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2011, 09:15:57 PM »

Most is filled with innuendos and additions to what my comments actually state.

You clearly stated that IN RETURN for landowners informing you of swarms, you would let them know of problems on their farm.

I should probably add - if I see livestock out because a tree fell on a fence, or someone drove through a fence, I will alert the landowner.  If a landowner's livestock gets out because they have neglected upkeep on their fences, then I won't bother calling.  If they were concerned about keeping their livestock contained, they wouldn't neglect to keep the fence in working order.  Any farmer who let his livestock get out, and then expected everyone to call him when his livestock got out would not be treated warmly in the community.

If you cared if your hives swarmed, you would be out there doing swarm prevention.  If you have the time to chase swarms, you have the time to do swarm prevention. 

Any beekeeper who claims that they don't have time to properly manage their bees, and expects landowners to call them about swarms, is a disgrace to other beekeepers.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

I am not jealous of a beekeeper who is too lazy to take the time to manage their hives, but they will find the time to chase swarms from their own hives if they can get someone else to babysit their hives.  In the hour it takes to go get a swarm, they could have prevented swarms in a yard or two.

I guess for a beekeeper with a few hives that are micromanaged, by a beekeeper with too much time on their hands, and the wrong attitude towards others, while casting stones, this could be expected.


I have never known a beekeeper with several hives to manage, who would even ask landowners to call them if their hives swarmed.  The only beekeepers I have ever known to do that are small time beekeepers.  Any beekeeper running many hives doesn't have the time to chase swarms - their time is more valuable doing other aspects of beekeeping.

The only time I have known of serious beekeepers collecting swarms was if it was close by and it was a 5 minute job to get it.  (Unless a swarm call is nearby to me, I refer them to a different beekeeper - and I'm still small time.)

I've even known of large apiaries telling swarm calls that they are a registered apiary so they can't collect swarms.

Seems that was a reason for you to get all nasty and go beyond telling your opinion, and attack my own way of doing things. I simply stated my own opinion that I do not feel that every beekeeper out there who misses a swarm, should be labled as a bad beekeeper or made to suggest they failed to do their job.

I don't think you really understood me.  I could care less if a beekeeper's hives swarm.  It's none of my concern if they don't take the time to manage their hives.  What I do have a problem with, is when a beekeeper won't take the time to properly manage their hives, but expects others to pick up the slack for them by calling them when their hives swarm - which is EXACTLY the way you said you run your operation.
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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2011, 09:25:22 PM »

I dont know bjorn i guess he is right  rolleyes
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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2011, 09:41:30 PM »

And this is the way I read this thread........................
Anything can be made into anything the writer wants.....;....





"Two boys are playing hockey on a pond in a Chicago park when one of the boys is suddenly attacked by a crazed Rottweiler.     
Thinking quickly, the other boy takes his hockey stick, shoves it under the dog's collar, twists it and breaks the dog's neck, saving his friend.       
A reporter is standing by, sees the incident, and rushes over to interview the boy.   
"Young Cub Fan Saves Friend from Vicious Animal" he starts writing in his notebook.   
"But I'm not a Cub Fan", the little boy replies.   
"Sorry but since we're in Chicago , I just assumed you were", says the reporter and starts writing again.   
"Sox Fan Rescues Friend from Horrific Attack," he writes in his notebook.   
 
"But I'm not a Sox Fan either, " the little boy replies.   
"Sorry but since we're in Chicago , ' I just assumed you were," says the reporter and starts writing again.       
"Bears Fan Rescues Friend from Horrific Attack," he writes in his notebook.   
 
"I'm not a Bears Fan either," says the boy. "Oh... I assumed   
 
everyone in Chicago was either for the Cubs, Sox or Bears.   
 
What team do you root for?" the reporter asked.   
 
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« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2011, 10:08:59 PM »

  What I do have a problem with, is when a beekeeper won't take the time to properly manage their hives, but expects others to pick up the slack for them by calling them when their hives swarm - which is EXACTLY the way you said you run your operation.

Why do you have a problem with the way I manage my hives, my operation, or swarms. Are you my mother?

Do you really have a problem and get all worried about others with little things like this all the time?

Or is this more about nothing, except nitpicking little things about others?

If a beekeeper had hives on my property, I would certainly feel obigated to call the beekeeper if I saw a hive swarm, or found one hanging on a tree. And for the same respect I show to others, is what I also expect from them.

One thing I know in life is scum, usually make excuses for other scum. One thief, has no problems with another thief. And one person with low morals, always feels comfortable defending others with low morals.

You had bees on my property.....I would call you. And if I had bees on your property, you have made it clear that this is not your job, you would have no respect for me, and would rationalize probably not calling me by suggesting that I was lazy.

That is the difference between you and me. I would call that farmer when the water pump stayed on and the tank was over flowing. I would call that farmer when the cows got out. And I would say something about the folks in the orchard when they were not supposed to be there. You see....that is who I am. And I would not as you have suggested, call the farmer lazy, or feel that he was not doing his job by having such items happen. My farmers know I would give them a call. And my farmers also know that if they see something with my hives....whether a swarm, or a lid blown off...they do the right thing and call me.

Sorry if your view of others is less than what I experience. The old saying is "You want a good neighbor...be a good neighbor". "You want a good friend, then be a good friend".

Not hard concepts to follow.

The only concept that I have a hard time following is your anal approach on caring, responding, and worrying so much as to what I do, don't do, and what relationship I have with my customers.

Maybe you should focus your energy on building better relationships, (if you have any) and know that others are doing far better than the suggested relationships you must have, based on the attitude you display.

It's simple......I call the farmer when the cows get out, and he calls me when the bees swarm. He is happy, and so I am. And I am not interested in any other arrangement less than that.

Try it some time. you may like it.  Wink
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« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2011, 10:15:14 PM »

thats my theory in life as well i guess thats why being a truck driver sucks so bad cuz everyone is looking out for themselves and it doesnt matter where you drive on the east coast everyone is worried about number 1   sad but true. No offense beemaster Jersey drivers are at the top of the list i have family there and when they come to visit here in the country they drive 10 feet off of each others bumper thinking someone might get in front of them.    butt kick
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2011, 08:17:27 AM »

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Any farmer who let his livestock get out, and then expected everyone to call him when his livestock got out would not be treated warmly in the community.

I don't know about this one countryboy.  I don't think there is a farmer here that takes such a non shellant attitude about their livestock.  They have a lot at stake.  it costs big bucks for livestock and if one gets out and you hit it with your car the farmer looses the animal and pays for your car.  The last thing a farmer wants is his livestock getting free.  OK maybe chickens...

Quote
No offense beemaster Jersey drivers are at the top of the list i have family there and when they come to visit here in the country they drive 10 feet off of each others bumper thinking someone might get in front of them.
   

Different driving skills in different parts of the country.  You would like it here.  Ma and Pa get out in the left lane on divided highways and drive at 30MPH.  You might think that their signals don't work but they are driving brand new cars.  I guess when Pa is driving he doesn't like people blowing by him 70mph in the left lane.  He doesn't notice it in the right lane because Ma has got his view blocked and by now he can't hear her screaming in his right ear cause that one is already deaf. grin
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2011, 08:21:53 AM »

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It's simple......I call the farmer when the cows get out, and he calls me when the bees swarm. He is happy, and so I am. And I am not interested in any other arrangement less than that.

Working together for the benefit of both ... How could we spread that concept around?

You got my vote on this one Bjorn.
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2011, 09:55:16 PM »

If you put up a bait hive , it is better that they end up in a hive than i a chimney , or in the wall of some ones house.

The bee keeper might not mind , you maybee doing him a favour , but honesty is best in the long run.

mvh edward  tongue
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« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2011, 11:40:17 PM »

Why do you have a problem with the way I manage my hives, my operation, or swarms. Are you my mother?

I could care less how you manage your hives, swarms, etc. - as long as it does not affect me.  When you try to justify bad behavior on your part, that affects me as a beekeeper by giving me a bad name.  The court of public opinion will convict me of being guilty by association, simply because I am a beekeeper also.

I have a problem with ANYONE who asks others around them to cover their butt because they are too lazy/incompetent/irresponsible/etc.  If you won't make the time to manage your hives to control swarming, don't ask anyone to watch for your swarms.  If you cared if your hive swarmed or not, you would have taken steps to control swarming.

Do you really have a problem and get all worried about others with little things like this all the time?

I won't stand back quietly when I see lazy people asking others to support their bad behavior.  (I despise welfare cases.)  People have a moral duty to speak out against bad behavior.

One thing I know in life is scum, usually make excuses for other scum. One thief, has no problems with another thief. And one person with low morals, always feels comfortable defending others with low morals.

Is that why you are making excuses for your bad behavior?
The inverse is also true.  People who have a problem with others being irresponsible or lazy tend to be harder working and responsible.  They do what needs to be done, and they don't ask others to call them if their hive swarms because they neglected to manage it properly.

You had bees on my property.....I would call you.


And I would tell you that if you were worried about the swarm, to go get a box of your own and put the swarm in it.  Enjoy your bees.

And if I had bees on your property, you have made it clear that this is not your job, you would have no respect for me, and would rationalize probably not calling me by suggesting that I was lazy.

I wouldn't need to rationalize, nor would I need to suggest anything.  The facts speak for themselves.  (Besides, you already admitted that you don't manage your hives properly to control swarming.)

That is the difference between you and me. I would call that farmer when the water pump stayed on and the tank was over flowing. I would call that farmer when the cows got out. And I would say something about the folks in the orchard when they were not supposed to be there. You see....that is who I am.

But are you a person who has enough brains to recognize the difference between swarms due to neglecting your responsibilities, and livestock getting out due to outside influences like a damaged fence or outside influences like thieves?  

There is a big difference between consequences of our own actions, and consequences of actions by others or outside influences.

And I would not as you have suggested, call the farmer lazy, or feel that he was not doing his job by having such items happen.

Once again, it should depend on if it was an accidental, or if it was intentional neglect.  Are you going to call a farmer when their livestock keeps walking through a broken down fence every single time you are there?  Or are you finally going to realize that you are wasting your time trying to help someone who is too lazy/irresponsible to help themselves?  If they were that worried about keeping their livestock in, they would maintain the fence.

And my farmers also know that if they see something with my hives....whether a swarm, or a lid blown off...they do the right thing and call me.

There is a difference between neglect and accident.  I would hope the farmers would realize there is a difference.  

Sorry if your view of others is less than what I experience. The old saying is "You want a good neighbor...be a good neighbor". "You want a good friend, then be a good friend".

Being a good neighbor and being a good friend does not involve picking up the slack for them due to them being lazy/irresponsible.  That actually makes you a bad friend, and a bad neighbor by enabling them to be lazy/irresponsible.

Don't forget that good fences make good neighbors too.

The only concept that I have a hard time following is your anal approach on caring, responding, and worrying so much as to what I do, don't do, and what relationship I have with my customers.

Because you are trying to rationalize and justify not properly managing your hives (your words) and expecting others to pick up the slack for you.  I could care less if you manage your hives properly or not - but don't expect others to pick up the slack for you when you don't properly manage your hives.  Grow a pair - be a man, and accept the consequences of your decisions.  If you won't take the time to properly manage your hives, accept that swarms will fly away and don't expect anyone to call you about it.

Maybe you should focus your energy on building better relationships, (if you have any) and know that others are doing far better than the suggested relationships you must have, based on the attitude you display.

I find that the relationships I build, folks know where I stand.  They know I accept full responsibility and the consequences/rewards of my decisions, and I expect them to accept full responsibility and the consequences/rewards of their decisions.

It's simple......I call the farmer when the cows get out, and he calls me when the bees swarm. He is happy, and so I am.

Did his cows get out because of a decision he made?  Did he neglect to maintain a fence, or did the livestock get out due to accident?
You've already admitted that the bees swarm due to your neglect.  If he calls you, of course you're happy because he just covered your butt.  
If his livestock gets out due to accident, and you call him - he's happy, because he thinks you're being a good neighbor.  In reality, all you did was give him a kiss while you took advantage of him.  (After all, you did say that you calling him about his livestock being out was conditional upon him calling you about swarms due to your neglect.)

Try it some time. you may like it.

No thanks.  I'm not interested in giving anyone a reach-around while I screw them over.  (I don't care if they would be happy with the kiss or not.)  I'd prefer to treat them fairly, and have my dignity.

Try it sometime.  You may like it.  I'm sure they will.

I don't think there is a farmer here that takes such a non shellant attitude about their livestock.

I've known of farmers who let livestock starve to death so they could collect insurance.
I've known of farmers who drag their feet getting their crops harvested, and wildlife decimates their crops through the winter ('Late Nate' comes to mind).
I've known farmers whose livestock kept getting out and eating neighboring farmer's crops - and he only fixed the fence when the grain farmer ordered the hired hands to shoot the livestock on sight if they were seen eating the crops.

There are responsible farmers, and there are irresponsible farmers.  There are responsible beekeepers who properly manage their hives to control swarming, and there are irresponsible beekeepers who choose not to properly manage their hives to control swarming.

People should be smart enough to be able to recognize the difference.

BTW, it is nonchalant, and not non shellant.

it costs big bucks for livestock and if one gets out and you hit it with your car the farmer looses the animal and pays for your car.

If the farmer is too lazy to maintain the fence, he has only himself to blame.  He should have thought of the cost to begin with.
If a beekeeper is too lazy to manage a hive to prevent swarming, he (or she) has only themself to blame.  They should have thought of the cost of losing a swarm before they decided they didn't want to make the time to manage their hive properly.

It is a whole lot easier to plan ahead and act accordingly, than to fly by the seat of your pants and try to catch swarms after they have flown the coop.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 08:28:05 PM by Countryboy » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2011, 07:07:50 AM »

 soapbox rant you seem a bit hostile , are you having a bad day ? rant rant soapbox
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« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2011, 09:18:36 AM »

Trying to keep wild animals from doing wild animal things is like trying to contain the contents of a 2-liter  bottle in your hands.

Unless you keep ALL of your hives so weak in that they CAN'T swarm.  But that would be like breaking your cows legs so they CAN'T go through a fence.

But I think most of us here agree...a simple chat with the beekeeper and grandpa would be simplest and easiest.  To assume anything when the getting the answers is so easy would be...well...stupid!
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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2011, 08:41:18 PM »

Trying to keep wild animals from doing wild animal things is like trying to contain the contents of a 2-liter  bottle in your hands.

That's not what was being discussed though.

Unless you keep ALL of your hives so weak in that they CAN'T swarm.

'Keep' implies management on your part.  Once again, that's not what was being discussed.  What was being discussed was a lack of management.

I have no problem with giving folks a hand-UP if they need it, but I do have a problem giving someone a hand-OUT because they are too lazy/irresponsible to help themselves.

If livestock gets out, the farmer will usually get them back in, and then repair the fence so that it does not happen again.  If the farmer does not take steps to prevent the livestock from getting out again, he will soon find little sympathy from others and they will quit informing him that his livestock is out and they will quit helping him get them back in.

When a beekeeper is too lazy/irresponsible to properly manage their hives to prevent swarming, it is the exact same scenario as the farmer who won't repair the fence, and the livestock keep getting out.  When a beekeeper is too lazy/irresponsible to manage their hives to prevent swarming, but EXPECTS to have swarms (how they maintain numbers) and EXPECTS the landowner to call them when there is a swarm, that is a welfare mentality.  They want others to do the work for them, but yet they want to reap the benefits.

I was in the FFA when I was in high school.  Part of the closing ceremonies is the phrase, "Above all, honest and fair in the game of life."  It bothers me when I see people who are not honest and fair, and who have the welfare mentality of looking for hand-outs, especially when those people are involved int he agricultural endeavor of beekeeping.
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« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2011, 09:10:11 PM »

Dear countryboy i feel that you are very knowledgable about bees and  i respect your knowledge about bees. But i will tell you this i know bjorn has lots of hives and responsibilites he sells honey, he sells nucs, he does pollination services as well.  He is very knowledgable about bees he answers many of my personal phone calls that im very appreciative of.  I think what he meant by ill watch yours you watch mine is that if a hive happens to swarm and the farmer sees it that he wants him to call him as the same if he sees something the farmer should know.  I understand your part as a lazy beekeeper but bjorn isnt one of them.  He knows how to manage bees and he is very helpful to others so if you are implying that he is a lazy beek and doesnt take care of his hives i dont think you know him too well   Thanks  Chris
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« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2011, 09:25:40 PM »

I don't care who you are, how long you've been keeping bees, commercial or hobbyist, gay or straight (nothin' wrong with that eh Mike grin) you will eventually have a hive swarm. Yes, swarm prevention works well but is not 100%.

The question here is about retrieving swarms from another beekeeper and I say asking first is the ethical way...maybe over a bottle of beer. It's just a matter of respect.

Scott
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« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2011, 09:38:44 PM »

He knows how to manage bees and he is very helpful to others so if you are implying that he is a lazy beek and doesnt take care of his hives i dont think you know him too well

I know what he has said about himself.  I have no need to imply that he is a lazy beekeeper - he has done a fine job of doing that himself.

I don't care who you are, how long you've been keeping bees, commercial or hobbyist, gay or straight (nothin' wrong with that eh Mike grin) you will eventually have a hive swarm.  Yes, swarm prevention works well but is not 100%.


That's very true.  Despite your best efforts to control swarming, there will be a small percentage that still swarms.  I don't know any competent beekeepers who rely on that small percentage of swarms to help maintain their hive numbers.  I don't know any competent beekeepers who would want to bother chasing that small percent that swarm.  Now that I think about it, I don't know any competent beekeepers who would not think someone was doing them a favor by catching swarms from that small percentage, rather than having someone call them and expect them to do something about the swarm.

I also don't know any competent beekeepers who don't have time to properly manage their hives, but have the time to chase swarms from those improperly managed hives.  I do know competent beekeepers who hire people to help them, because paying someone to help is cheaper than losing swarms and losing the honey crop.
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« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2011, 06:29:09 AM »

This would be a good time for everyone to read rule #2 Here:



http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,19652.0.html

If you don't understand it the first time,reread it!!
 There have been a few pushing the limits on this rule. Be forewarned,membership is a privilege here,not a right.
 Some comments of late have been turning members off here as of late.
 If it applies to you,take notice!!


#2
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,19652.0.html
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« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2011, 03:06:52 PM »

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BTW, it is nonchalant, and not non shellant.

If you are going to make fun of my spelling and word choice you will have a full time job.  Most people can understand my wrong word choices like you did.  So it doesn't phase me if you should point that out.
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« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2011, 07:26:01 PM »


scott, i shore am not competent, but love chasing swarms, and do depend on them to ofset my losses. shore hope my spelling doesnt ofend too much fo some of you eng. profs.
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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2011, 11:48:29 AM »

Sorry I have not posted for awhile.

Saturday, I spent the day in Chester County at a bee conference.

Sunday I spent the day working on the PennApic Environment Action Committee agenda combined with a 4 hour meeting.

Monday, I spent the bulk of the day preparing and visiting the Governor's Mansion in Harrisburg, where PennApic will be installing a full working apiary, so all visiting dignitaries and visitors to the Governors residence will be exposed to bees.

Yesterday, I had way too much to do, and then swimming classes last night, letters to write to sponsors of national honey Bee Day, etc.

I wanted to check my bees. I really did. I guess if they swarmed over the past few days, I'll just be called lazy and a bad beekeeper. I didn't get any phone calls, so I think I'm safe for now.

Boy...I only wish I had time to visit every hive more often.  grin

Thank you to all the beekeepers who seem to live in the same busy world as me, and were supportive. Busy just like me, with little many things going on. But not too busy to make that farmer happy by responding to a call, so the bees do not go in the neighbors barn. I might not stop all swarms, but I will respond to my property owners to keep them happy.

 Wink



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« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2011, 06:41:59 PM »

Hey lazyboy,
fill us in in another thread on the apiary at the governors mansion.
Will Mr.Corbett visit the apiary at all? Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2011, 12:09:13 AM »

If a swarm is located sufficiently close to a bee yard to assume that is where they come from, the the beekeeper who maintains that yard should be contacted.  If they are in an area where they could be from several bee yards then I think they'd be fair game.  Most people who call about swarms are not aware of who keeps bees in their area unless they are readily visible from the road or sidewalk.  I've been keeping bees for over 50 years, I have a good idea of what I'm doing.

As for animals being out, I recently filed a nuance report because somebody has been opening the gate trying to let my sheep roam free.  I have 5 ft fences, all built within the last 3 years, so they're not going to break down unless assisted.
It's still winter, the grass is short, and it hasn't started to grow yet.  I feed my sheep the best quality of hay I can find, I also feed them grain both daily, as it's the tail end of lambing season.  Long wool after a hard winter looks ratty, but with the end of lambing comes shearing and doctoring time.
PETA freaks and the like have filed reports that my animals are well treated.  It forced me to counter file a report and take the animal control officer on a tour of my facilities.

With the rise in the price of gas, and the twitter world rabid with twits of "steal the gas don't by it"  I have lost 3 tanks of gas and resorted to locking gas caps.

My bees are visible from the road, my animals are well cared for and well treated and my neighbors love to bring their kids by to see the animals.  I expect a call if someone sees a swarm within a 1/2 mile of me and if and when my animals are out.  I do the same for their animals etc in return, it is called being neighborly. As for the people whose ignorance of animal behavior prompts them to endanger animals by letting them roam free or those people who think they have a right to my gas...well I hope they've been inoculated against lead posoning.

Countryboy, is that plain enough or do you want t to nit-pick my post?
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