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Author Topic: Answering Kathy's question  (Read 11180 times)
Acebird
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« on: February 26, 2011, 06:33:09 PM »

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please list all the revolutions that ended with positive change for the general population.

Must be a trick question … all revolutions bring positive change for the general population.

American Revolution, Industrial revolution, technological revolution, You name it revolution means change.

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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 06:44:26 PM »

But wasn't the Industrial revolution driven by people making obscene  profit?
Carnegie,Bessemer,Getty,to name a few. Not to mention the railroad and ship building magnates of the time. And at that time the divide between rich and poor was much more extreme.
It was driven by greed.And not necessarily corporate greed as many of these companies then were not owned by stockholders.
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Acebird
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2011, 07:07:16 PM »

Greed? Sad

Of course.  Did it make a positive change for the general population is the question.

How about cell phones, computers, and flat screen TVs,  You don't see any greed in that?
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011, 07:16:30 PM »

Buzzbee, I would speculate a lot of revolutions begin from individuals who real motivation is simply the betterment of their lives.  Once a revolution looks profitable, then the bankers and money men take over to exploit it the maximum level a government will allow. 

So yes, I would agree that the Industrial Revolution was driven by profit, but that is not really what started the ball rolling.  I don’t think the bankers and money men start too many revolutions, as AceBird says, it’s usually the youth. 

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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011, 07:52:25 PM »

I think it would depend upon one's definition of 'revolution'.

It appears this thread's definition of revolution is far different from the definition of revolution when used in the context of the background thread.

The 'industrial revolution' is a misnomer.  It was not a revolt against industry or involving industry.  Simply changes processes is not a revolution, even if you call it a revolution.

The 'technological revolution' also is a bogus name, as there was no revolution.  The advances of technology have actually produced many negative things for the general population.  Many people have lost jobs due to 'technology'.

The American Revolution is actually one revolution which brought about positive change for the general population.  The French Revolution is another, when the people beheaded Marie Antoinette AND all the tax collectors.
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2011, 08:17:52 PM »

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Many people have lost jobs due to 'technology'.

Many more have gained jobs due to technology and this will always be the case.

People have lost jobs today because of corporate greed.  some people feel that is all part of the game.  But as it continues there will be more and more people out of work or can't find work.  This will affect the young initially because there is no jobs for them when they reach the normal age of  employment.  And then it is going to affect the old because there will be no youngens supporting the old geezers.  Both groups at that point will be in the mood for a revolution.
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 08:29:11 PM »

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The French Revolution is another, when the people beheaded Marie Antoinette AND all the tax collectors.
 
 


i'd have to take issue with this one.  the French revolution brought chaos, anarchy, and death.  it was a failure in bringing about positive social or governmental  change for the population.  it was Napoleon who returned and brought order.  not until after his reign were some of the goals of the revolution  realized.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 08:41:51 PM »

Not sure that that is true. Wealth redistribution probably has more to do with job loss than greed.When wealth is redistributed,that takes away money that could be invested in economic expansion.
"Jobs" are always changing. You may not see the "smokestack" factories so much anymore,But when the railroads convereted from steam to diesel  hundreds of thousands of jobs in that industry disappeared. Other jobs were created in the market place that replaced the missing jobs. Believe it or not,there are millions of people working in the "tech" sector. They may not be building TVs and radios,but designing software and hardware for every day use.Plastics technology is constantly evolving.
The next era of transportation may be space transport. If this develops it certainly would create a lot of new jobs.
Just because we cannot see the future does not me we do not have one. I have faith that some greedy entrepeneur will come along with an idea and have to hire people to make his dream of wealth come true.
And lets not forget,as baby boomers are nearing the upper end of life,their will certainly be jobs as morticians.
  As far as the Industrial Revolution,it was probably more of an evolution than a Revolution.
 
Wasn't Adolf Hitler a revolutionary figure? He led the social revolution of Germany.
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Acebird
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« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2011, 08:56:58 AM »

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When wealth is redistributed,that takes away money that could be invested in economic expansion.

Last I heard the stock market is over 12,000.  The wealth distribution is going from the middle class to the filthy rich.  There is no problem in the investment market.  The rich protected the rich, and always will.  Do you see BP suffering?

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Wasn't Adolf Hitler a revolutionary figure? He led the social revolution of Germany.

Didn't he bring Germany out of poverty?  Isn't Germany an economic power today?  I am not saying he didn't deserve to burn at the stake but he brought positive change.

Qaddafi, same thing.  Castro, same thing.  These people are backed for a reason.  There initial platform is to take from the rich and give to the poor.  When the timing is right this will always spark a revolution.

Chaos usually follows until a dictator takes control.  It is impossible for a democracy to work after a revolution.
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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2011, 09:22:07 AM »

So I am to assume you think dictatorships are a good thing?
I know a lot of the stocks owned in the market are owned by individuals now. that is one thing that makes the ,market more volatile.
    And don't forget,the rich that own a lot of stock lose a lot more money when it goes down.
It is easy to blame the big business and banks when the jobs are lost. If they are responsible for job losses then they must have had something to do with the job creation. it is not a one way street. Companies do not thrive with high unemployment.
  BP makes a lot of money,sure. But they have invested billions and billions to make this money. It did not just show up on the ledger sheet.
And BP makes money providing a product the people willingly purchase. 
I could ride my bicycle to work everyday if I wanted,but I choose not to. I could bum a ride with my neighbor to town,but I choose not to.
We could carpool to the grocery store,but again,my choice.
  If you wish to sit in the dark,walk in the cold,wear a bearskin rug,(though the bear may not appreciate it) that is your  choice. But lets not blame BP for providing what the people want.
Besides, If BP shut down,there would be a lot of unemployed people.
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2011, 11:04:27 AM »

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Qaddafi, same thing.  Castro, same thing.  These people are backed for a reason.  There initial platform is to take from the rich and give to the poor.  When the timing is right this will always spark a revolution

the German economy was on the upswing before Hitler took over.  the whole idea that Hitler came to power and the war was started because of the economic problems caused by the Treaty of Versailles , is a myth..... except for the psychological effect of the treaty. we paid most of their debt after WW1.
 Hitler came to power because the workers (unions) were feeling pretty good and flexing muscle.  that revolution was no different than the communist revolution a few years before in Russia.  same demographics pushing the same message.  the results were only marginally different.  the real real differences were the causes.

Germany is not an economic power.  they were closer to that years ago, but they are now  deeply in debt and having some major economic readjustments.  they, like everyone else, over-promised social welfare programs and now find they can't pay for them.  they also have the burden of east Germany.
one of the reasons they came out of the war in reasonable shape is that we rebuilt them and gave them money.

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Qaddafi, same thing.  Castro, same thing.  These people are backed for a reason.  There initial platform is to take from the rich and give to the poor.  When the timing is right this will always spark a revolution.

their initial platform is to make things "fair".  we have plenty of examples, yours among them, of how that doesn't' work.  we seem to have failed to learn some lessons along the way.

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The wealth distribution is going from the middle class to the filthy rich.  There is no problem in the investment market

Chaos usually follows until a dictator takes control.  It is impossible for a democracy to work after a revolution.

true and true about democracy.  i would add that it is impossible for democracy to work long term anywhere.  that is why our founders rejected democracy.  
dictators take over because most revolutions have no plan past overthrowing the current government.  the most organized group takes over after the revolution and they are usually the ones who were behind the agitation.  they have no problem throwing the peasants against the wall and then marching over the bodies when the wall crumbles.  

we do not have a class system.  imagine what you might accomplish if you put as much effort into succeeding as you do into fussing about the "filthy rich".  go to any of these countries you admire so much, even many of the European countries.  see if you have any chance of success in those places no matter how hard you work.  instead of whining, work.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2011, 04:00:04 PM »

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Germany is not an economic power.  they were closer to that years ago, but they are now  deeply in debt


Are we talking about the US or Germany?

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they also have the burden of east Germany.


Thanks to us.

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we do not have a class system.

We certainly do but it is based on wealth not blood line.

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instead of whining, work.
 

You make me laugh Kathy.  I think it was you that said it was too much work to plant a garden.  I have a reputation of being a workaholic.  What makes you think I am not successful?

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So I am to assume you think dictatorships are a good thing?

I think they can be.  There have been many benevolent dictatorships in the past.  A democracy requires an educated population.  Our constitution, “by the people for the people”, that was intended to mean educated people not all people.  Kathy is right, after our revolution with England we did not have a democracy.  Yet we seem to want to force that form of government on every one else.  Our government is mostly a democracy for our own people but we act like dictators to foreign countries that we can easily overpower.  We would do it to Iran if we could.

Communism and dictatorships are the only form of governments that can control a tribal culture.  If these people are not suppressed and allowed to become educated then you have a chance of a good democracy.  But not until.
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2011, 05:28:42 PM »

I think some should read the book "Animal Farm".  rolleyes
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2011, 06:25:23 PM »

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I think it was you that said it was too much work to plant a garden.

i don't mind having past posts referenced, but i suggest you read them before you try to use them.

dictatorial governments are attractive to some.  if you have a government that tells you what to do, when to do it, and what they will pay, you don't need any personal responsibility.  all the guess work is taken out of your life....except maybe whether or not there will still be bread when you get to the front of the line.  for the lazy of mind or the uninspired, a dictatorship might be just the thing.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2011, 08:32:12 PM »

People have lost jobs today because of corporate greed.

What is corporate greed?  Please define it.  I hear a lot about how corporate greed is so awful, but no one seems to clarify what it is they are talking about.

Seeking profit?  That's a wonderful thing.  Without profit as a motivation, you end up wasteful and inefficient like government.

But as it continues there will be more and more people out of work or can't find work.

That's ridiculous.  People who are out of work or can't find work are in that position because they chose to be there.  What you often see are non-working people who want to pick and choose what work they do, and expect someone else to provide work for them.  If you are willing to work, there is work out there.  There is nothing stopping you from working for yourself - become a commercial beekeeper, for example.

This will affect the young initially because there is no jobs for them when they reach the normal age of  employment.

Normal age of employment?  What's that?  Any kid old enough to work is old enough to work.

And then it is going to affect the old because there will be no youngens supporting the old geezers.

What responsibility do 'youngens' have to support old geezers?  Whatever happened to old geezers living off the accumulated fruits of their labors over the years? 

Both groups at that point will be in the mood for a revolution.

A revolution?  In what manner?  What volute will they be returning to?  (You do know that volute is the root word of revolution or convolute, right?)

i'd have to take issue with this one.  the French revolution brought chaos, anarchy, and death.


It also brought massive advancements in personal liberties.  A little bit of chaos, anarchy, and death is a small price to pay for personal liberty.  The American colonists also agreed that death was better than not having liberty.

Last I heard the stock market is over 12,000.

So?  What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?  It doesn't.  12,000 is a meaningless number.  You are actually referring to the Dow Industrial Average, and not the stock market.  If a stock price gets too low, it gets booted from the Dow and replaced with a better performing stock.  If you kept the same companies in the Dow, the price would be much lower than 12,000.

Then look at what is used to measure the Dow.  12,000 is a measure in US dollars.  Price the Dow with a different currency.  In 2001, it took something like 49 ounces of gold to buy the Dow.  Now, you can buy the Dow for less than 9 ounces.  The Dow has 20% of the value it had 10 years ago.

The wealth distribution is going from the middle class to the filthy rich.  There is no problem in the investment market.  The rich protected the rich, and always will.

They are losing their butt in the stock market.  Smart investors bailed out of the stock market already...or rather, they bailed out of the US stock market.  They very well may be invested in other stock markets in other countries.

Do you see BP suffering?

If BP is doing so well, why don't you invest your money in BP and join in the party?

Didn't he bring Germany out of poverty?  Isn't Germany an economic power today?

Yes, Hitler brought Germany out of poverty and massive debt back then.  What Hitler did by replacing the currency has nothing to do with why Germany is an economic power today.

Qaddafi, same thing.  Castro, same thing.  These people are backed for a reason.  There initial platform is to take from the rich and give to the poor.

Where do you come up with this stuff?  Qaddafi and Castro came to power by being military leaders and overthrowing the old government.  They were backed by people who profited by them being in power, and the few backing them were holding all the guns.  The common citizenry submitted to their rule, simply because they had a gun held to their heads.

A democracy requires an educated population.

No it doesn't.  It just requires people to find a common consensus.  The Old English Common law was set up and instituted by uneducated people exercising democratic processes.

Our constitution, “by the people for the people”, that was intended to mean educated people not all people.

That is flat absurd.  That constitution also set up the right to a trial by jury of your peers - common, uneducated people judging both your innocence and the LAW.

Communism and dictatorships are the only form of governments that can control a tribal culture.  If these people are not suppressed and allowed to become educated then you have a chance of a good democracy.  But not until.

What about the Iroquois League?  They had an excellent democracy, involving several uneducated tribes.

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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2011, 08:49:12 AM »

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What is corporate greed?  Please define it.


You don't understand it?  Corporate greed is lining your pockets with gold at the expense of someone else.  Having a tax payer bail you out for YOUR mistakes and then taking a huge bonus for doing so.  BTW that is socialism.  So when you jump on the band waggon about socialism, think twice.  Think about what created huge debt in such a short time.  And then ask the people out of work how they benefited from it.

If you don't understand how corporate greed is the root cause of the decline of the middle class then commenting on your other off beat remarks is fruitless.  You are in your own little world of make believe.
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2011, 12:19:07 PM »

I still don't have any idea how the government is going to pay for all those social entitlement programs  and other types of entitlement programs that have landed us 13 trillion + dollars in debt.

You can say it is corporate greed, and much wealth has disappeared because of it, but when the government implodes like so many companies have because of the debt, we're screwed.  Middle class, lower class, upper class.

The government is running the same way many companies have been.
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2011, 03:29:47 PM »

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I still don't have any idea how the government is going to pay for all those social entitlement programs  and other types of entitlement programs that have landed us 13 trillion + dollars in debt.

Which entitlements?  Congress, teachers, military, railroads, teamsters, local government or do you mean SS and welfare?

Our countries tax structure is based on people working and not just stocking shelves at Wal-Mart.  If you remove manufacturing from our home soil you have eliminated our employment opportunities.  So the ones left working (at reduced pay) will now have to fill in the gap.  Borrowing money we didn’t have and giving that money to support the ones that have caused the economic disaster will destroy the country.  You can’t go in debt and at the same time reduce income.  That only has one outcome.

So you tell me who is going to give up more of their income the ones that are still working or the ones that aren’t working?  You can’t draw blood from a stone.

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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2011, 03:46:57 PM »

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they also have the burden of east Germany.


Thanks to us.

don't you mean thanks to russia ? wasn't it their control over the communist block countries that kept east germany in poverty, not to mention keeping them in the stone age, while west germany was able to rebuild ?
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2011, 04:36:05 PM »

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I still don't have any idea how the government is going to pay for all those social entitlement programs  and other types of entitlement programs that have landed us 13 trillion + dollars in debt.

Which entitlements?  Congress, teachers, military, railroads, teamsters, local government or do you mean SS and welfare?
Yep, yep.  If I can't pay for a nice car, I'm going to keep driving the clunker I got.  Government needs to operate on the same principle.  Painful, but true.  I'm willing to pay more in taxes to a sane, disciplined entity that can balance a sheet, but not willing to pay more taxes to the giant blackhole that it is right now.
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Our countries tax structure is based on people working and not just stocking shelves at Wal-Mart. 

So only people who manufacture stuff work?
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