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Author Topic: Answering Kathy's question  (Read 10967 times)
Keith13
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« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2011, 05:11:13 AM »

Tell us what percentage of the population you think is educated within its own boarders.

Within its boarders or its borders?  They are different things.  (What were you saying about education again?)



ok i'm sure a spellcheck thing but funny none the less

Keith
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Acebird
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« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2011, 09:00:14 AM »

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The textile industry took a terrible hit because of minimum wage.

I haven’t got time to answer all your rhetoric comments but I will take on this one.  You got to be growing some heirloom cannabis because nothing could be further than the truth.  Textiles were all in the northeast.  Factories moved south to break the unions in the north.  Not a sole was making minimum wage.  In the south greedy management stile (similar to the north) brought labor unions to the south.  Not a sole worked for minimum wage, ever.

When I was a kid my grandmother who came from Germany worked in a shirt factory that supplied all the big name stores in the Big Apple.  She worked there for forty years and never made minimum wage.  She brought work home and worked nights and weekends in our basement and never was paid minimum wage.  I worked in the textile industry from 1973 to 1982 building automated pillow case and sheet hemmers.  Before I left the company every American pillow case was made on those machines that I built and serviced.  No American companies were doing it by hand anymore.

Now the next big wave for textiles was to go offshore which was already happening during the days that I was working in textiles.  No one was making minimum wage through any of these transactions.

Minimum wage is a minimum standard for a civilized country to prevent greedy businesses from taking advantage of the least fortunate people in a society.  The lower the minimum wage, the lower the standard of living is in any country.
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kathyp
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« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2011, 09:42:15 AM »

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Minimum wage is a minimum standard for a civilized country to prevent greedy businesses from taking advantage of the least fortunate people in a society.  The lower the minimum wage, the lower the standard of living is in any country.

please explain how minimum wage raises standard of living.  please also give the history of standard of living compared to implementation of minimum wage.  what other factors might  have led to higher standard of living?  what unintended consequences are attached to arbitrarily raising income?  if there is cause and effect between wage increase and price increases, at who point can do we need to stop raising wage?

i'm also curious as to what is your definition of "high standard of living"?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2011, 10:46:24 AM »

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please explain how minimum wage raises standard of living.

Oh come on now you can't be that oblivious.  As wages increase people on the low end spend more.  People on the high end spend less.  It is good for the country.

Quote
if there is cause and effect between wage increase and price increases,

No, price is affected by demand.  Wages do not affect prices.  However an increase wage at the low end may affect wages at the high end if a company wants to stay in business.  The people at the high end just need to be less greedy if they are affected by the low end wages rising.
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Keith13
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« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »

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  Wages do not affect prices. 

Really?Huh? How do you think price is set? To bring it to a local easy level the price of your honey. Basically 3 things affect the price of your honey.
The hardware and cost associated with production hives, bees, gear, bottles, tanks etc.
Local competition cost others sell their honey for.
What you believe your labor is worth, or more commonly known as wages
if any of these get out of wack by the greedy owner the business fails
Keith
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Acebird
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« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2011, 11:09:45 AM »

Keith you are mentioning what your strategy is for setting your price structure but what a consumer is willing to pay is up to the consumer (supply and demand).  What you pay to supply a product has no effect on the price that the consumer will pay.
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kathyp
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« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2011, 11:45:38 AM »

if anyone here is my friend, please reach through the computer and shoot me for asking this.....



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The people at the high end just need to be less greedy if they are affected by the low end wages rising.

to what point?  until equality is reached?  do you know there is a whole (failed) economic theory based on this? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2011, 12:17:03 PM »

Acebird, that's a great idea. I'm sure you will go to work tomorrow and ask your boss to lower your wage, since you are making more than some other workers and you don't want to be greedy.

YEAH, RIGHT.

Of course, after reading some of your posts, I wouldn't put anything past the possibility of you actually doing it.
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« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2011, 01:09:47 PM »

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to what point? until equality is reached?


Whew, to even suggest that equality would be reach is a puff on that magic pipe.  Did you get into Countryboy’s stash?  Minimum wage is controlled by government and we all know who controls government and why.

Look down through the list of countries and what each considers minimum wage.  Kathy, do you think the US is the only country with a minimum wage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Quote
do you know there is a whole (failed) economic theory based on this?

You are always yapping about some failed theory and the more you flap your yap about something the more you prove your statements are false.  So why not just spill your guts on what you think you know and save us some time if nothing else.

Quote
Of course, after reading some of your posts, I wouldn't put anything past the possibility of you actually doing it.


Now that I think back I have never asked a boss to lower my salary but I have never asked one to increase it either.  That just seemed to happen.  I can only remember once being paid minimum wage in a hotel restaurant and that only lasted six month before my first raise.  I even worked in a retail men’s store which traditionally would be a minimum wage job but the manager liked my look.  They didn’t even have an open position but I was hired on the spot.  You see, not all business minded people are greedy.  Some can recognize the good in people and have no problem rewarding them.  Others are strictly out for themselves and wouldn’t share a nickel unless the government forces them to.


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« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2011, 06:02:02 PM »

The wages work with supply and demand just as prices do.
If people are not satisfied with the wage they earn,they are free to go somewhere else. If all jobs are filled,I guess they work for what the market will bear.
Maybe it's unfair the rural people make less in most places than the same jobs in the cities.

  Perhaps the machines you built were cheaper to run than hand labor. I guess it was you that put people out of work possibly.If a machine does the work of four people,the company that invested in the machine is not responsible to employ those people any longer.
  

And if the cost of labor has no bearing on the price of a product,there would be no reason for a company to ship overseas.The machines still cost money.
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« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2011, 06:02:56 PM »

P.s.
  Watch with name calling and personal attacks  in this post,it will not be tolerated.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2011, 07:13:15 PM »

Wages that are paid is an expense to the employer that has to be factored into the profits. If the wages of the workers are going to break the bank then the price of the product has to be raised to cover that expense.
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« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2011, 07:34:34 PM »

Maybe what we really need is a MAXIMUM wage.  How many times larger is the CEO pay now than the average workers pay?  1000x, 10000x?  How much is enough?  When one human thinks they are 1000x better than everybody else doing 60 to 80 hours a week, that is what I call greed.

Do I think the CEO of Goldman Sachs works harder than CB?  I doubt it.  Do I think the CEO “earns” 50Million+ a year.  No way.  I would probably use the term legalized robbery to describe what Goldman does.

I wonder how many of you think the ex CEO of General Motors (Rick Wagner) deserved to walk away from GM with a 10million dollar severance package that you all paid for?  Do you really think he “earned” that?  That is what I call greed. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2011, 09:15:34 PM »

who would decide how much is enough?  the government?  it is up to shareholders to keep track of such thing.  many do not.  however, i'd rather have them fail, that to have the government determine when i have made enough money.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2011, 12:06:05 AM »

Textiles were all in the northeast.

Yeah - right next to the cottonfields they have up there.  Lots of southern textile industry too.  But that's beside the point - the location of the textile factories here in the US is irrelevant to the fact that the textile industry took a big hit from minimum wage when it was first imposed.

Not a sole was making minimum wage.

Sole, or soul?  (Did they even have minimum wage?)

She worked there for forty years and never made minimum wage.

Either there was no minimum wage, or she worked piece rate, and she was really slow.

As wages increase people on the low end spend more.

That is assuming they have a job.  The workers who lost their job when minimum wages were imposed spent less.

People on the high end spend less.

People with higher earnings don't base their spending levels on what the low end makes.  I have no idea where you came up with that.

No, price is affected by demand. Wages do not affect prices.

It's also affected by the cost to produce an item - and wages are a cost of production.  You would have to be an idiot not to see that wages affect prices.

I have an idea.  Why don't you go start a business Acebird, and then pay everyone a million dollars an hour.  Be a kind and considerate man.  Show us how you can pay a million dollars an hour wages, without it affecting the price of whatever you produce.  Share the wealth - don't be greedy.

The people at the high end just need to be less greedy if they are affected by the low end wages rising.

My brother is a skilled laborer.  He has taken classes to get better educated, and has worked his way to higher pay by becoming better at his job.  The last time they increased minimum wage, he made the comment that he had just gotten $1+ pay CUT.  To him, it was a pay cut because his present pay was now $1+ closer to starting pay.  The education and hard work he had invested to get a little extra money was for nothing, because others got the pay boost for free.  Are you saying that my brother is greedy because he wanted rewarded for taking classes and working hard?

Minimum wage is controlled by government and we all know who controls government and why.

No we don't.  Please explain who exactly controls government and why.  I can't read your mind.

but I have never asked one to increase it either.  That just seemed to happen.


Let me guess.  All your life you have only worked entry level minimum wage jobs - and you got a pay raise every time minimum wage was increased?  That would also explain why you don't feel merit is rewarded in workplaces - you got raises, even if they weren't merited?

Maybe what we really need is a MAXIMUM wage.  How many times larger is the CEO pay now than the average workers pay?

CEO pay is a salary, and not a wage.

I have no problem with performance based pay, as long as the pay only comes from the company earnings.  I do have a problem with taxpayers footing the bill.
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Acebird
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« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2011, 11:59:12 AM »

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Perhaps the machines you built were cheaper to run than hand labor.

Of course they were.  But in each and every case the number of overall jobs increase along with the standard of living.  Companies seek automation because they cannot meet demand or they want to increase their market share and thirdly, they cannot get enough people to do the work.  As the standard of living increases in a country no one wants to work a monotonous low paying job.

Do you honestly believe the price of a car would go down if wages at GM were reduced.  I am not an economics major but supply and demand is basic.  Wages do not affect what someone will pay for a product.  The price of gas is skyrocketing.  Do you think everyone in the oil industry just got a big raise?  Wages affect profits and profits do not affect prices.
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« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2011, 02:00:21 PM »

Ace, you know I agree with you most of the time, but I’m going to have to disagree about wages and product prices.  Labor cost is a big part of most real businesses.  When the cost of labor goes down, a business can be more “competitive” and gain market share by lowering prices.  Price moves products. 

In the case of the Auto companies, the majority of labor costs are controlled by the unions and those costs never go down unless they are reorganized in a crisis.  Since the auto companies had been running on net margins of less than 5% for years and years, and loaded down with debt, there was no way they could reduce prices and stay in business.  GM lost a huge amount of market share to Toyota in the past 30 years due to the inability to be cost competitive with the Asian companies.

You’ll find the price of oil is driven up almost entirely by speculators on Wall Street; they now trade most of the future contracts which sets the “price of oil” (not consumer supply vs demand).  Costs have nothing to do with it.  Wall Street has taken over the original purpose of the futures markets.  However I suspect some will argue that the price of oil is still determined by market forces even when manipulated by the speculators.  I can’t totally dis-agree with that opinion either.
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Keith13
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« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2011, 02:07:33 PM »

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Perhaps the machines you built were cheaper to run than hand labor.

Of course they were.  But in each and every case the number of overall jobs increase along with the standard of living.  Companies seek automation because they cannot meet demand or they want to increase their market share and thirdly, they cannot get enough people to do the work.  As the standard of living increases in a country no one wants to work a monotonous low paying job.

Do you honestly believe the price of a car would go down if wages at GM were reduced.  I am not an economics major but supply and demand is basic.  Wages do not affect what someone will pay for a product.  The price of gas is skyrocketing.  Do you think everyone in the oil industry just got a big raise?  Wages affect profits and profits do not affect prices.

You are trying to back into the cost of a product. Wages play a big part in the final sales price of the product. Yes I do believe in theory that if wages to GM autoworkers are reduced the cost to make a car will go down therefore the price should come down. The price of oil rising right now has nothing to do with wages it is 100% speculation driven. So no I do not believe everyone in the oil industry recieved a raise. There are numerous variables that add to the final cost of a product with wages a large part of the mix. You are correct supply and demand is basic very basic. But add to that a false price floor, govt support, unionized labor, market forces, foreign trade tariffs, imports exports, price breaks and you can see how basic supply and demand theory no longer applies.

Keith

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Keith13
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« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2011, 02:08:44 PM »

Ace, you know I agree with you most of the time, but I’m going to have to disagree about wages and product prices.  Labor cost is a big part of most real businesses.  When the cost of labor goes down, a business can be more “competitive” and gain market share by lowering prices.  Price moves products. 

In the case of the Auto companies, the majority of labor costs are controlled by the unions and those costs never go down unless they are reorganized in a crisis.  Since the auto companies had been running on net margins of less than 5% for years and years, and loaded down with debt, there was no way they could reduce prices and stay in business.  GM lost a huge amount of market share to Toyota in the past 30 years due to the inability to be cost competitive with the Asian companies.

You’ll find the price of oil is driven up almost entirely by speculators on Wall Street; they now trade most of the future contracts which sets the “price of oil” (not consumer supply vs demand).  Costs have nothing to do with it.  Wall Street has taken over the original purpose of the futures markets.  However I suspect some will argue that the price of oil is still determined by market forces even when manipulated by the speculators.  I can’t totally dis-agree with that opinion either.


Beat me to it

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2011, 03:28:41 PM »

oil prices, along other most commodities, are largely driving by speculators.  the thing is, no one ever asks "who are the speculators"?  the simple answer is that they are anyone who is going to use a product long term, and is trying to get in front of the price.  as an example:  a number of years ago, SW airlines bought it's fuel several years in advance.  they were covered through 2010.  as we had various oil spikes in the 2000's, SW was able to keep prices low because they had bet that fuel would go up and purchased at a lower price.  now...if they had been wrong, they would still have paid that higher price and other airline that did not buy in advance would have purchased lower and had an edge over SW.  speculation gives the appearance of a tightening market if if there is plenty of supply.  if Hormel buys all the pig futures, it might look like there's a pork shortage even if there are plenty of pigs smiley

the down side to it is that it can drive prices up and down outside of supply and demand.  the upside is that it gives pricing predictability to commodities.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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