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Author Topic: Answering Kathy's question  (Read 11148 times)
Scadsobees
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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2011, 08:21:36 AM »

This whole arguement is stupid.

If everybody were equal in talents and goodwill, the socialist and everybody share everything model would work.  But we're not.  There are people out there who will bust their butts and work non stop to accumulate something for themselves.

There are people who will just do what they need to get by.

Then there are people who won't do anything and mooch off of everybody else.

If you take all of the extra from the "bust their butts" people and spread it around to the moochers, you remove any incentive, and everybody falls into the "get by" or the "moocher" category.  Can you say "economic implosion"?

We're becoming that nation.  France and most of Europe is there already.
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2011, 11:41:54 AM »

Michael, no one person can cause or create a revolution.  It takes masses, usually much more than a simple majority.

Some day China will be democratic.  The more the people become educated the faster it will happen.  Some day Iran will be democratic.

Quote
If you take all of the extra from the "bust their butts" people and spread it around to the moochers, you remove any incentive, and everybody falls into the "get by" or the "moocher" category.  Can you say "economic implosion"?

I think the incentive has been removed but not by what you say.  I think that the American dream is no longer attainable for many of the bust your butt type A personalities.  Many Americans are indeed in the “get by” mode and may slump towards the moocher category because they can’t see the end of the tunnel.  You can definitely see this in today’s workplace.  No matter how hard you work you are not rewarded for your toil.  I have had many discussions with my children over the years that the way to succeed is with hard work and perseverance.  I have learned the error of my ways and know now that merit is a thing of the past.  If you can’t stomach taking advantage of every situation and stomp on your peers you will not advance.  It isn’t about hard work at all anymore.

Managers still use the phrase of merit is based on hard work but they know full well that someone above them has dictated who will get what in a annual review and it sure isn’t based on merit.  That is what corporate greed has done to this country.  It has nothing to do with the genetics of the population.  There is the same ratio of type A people and lazy people as there always was but the incentives have drastically reduced.
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2011, 06:29:43 PM »

Blame it on corporate greed ,but most of the succesful people I know didn't depend on the company or government to make their fortunes. They took chances and invested with their paychecks. They worked eighty hours or more a week to make it. They did not expect huge rewards for a 40 hour work week. At the end of the week you got a paycheck. If you were not satisfied,you moved on to something else.
If you do not bother to educate yourself or take a risk,you are not entitled to anything more than a paycheck.
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2011, 07:28:06 PM »

A unionized public employee, a tea party activist and a CEO are sitting at a table with a plate of a dozen cookies in the middle of it. The CEO takes 11 of the cookies, turns to the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that union guy... he wants a piece of your cookie!
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2011, 08:46:21 PM »

You mean the ceo bought the house, bought the stove, bought the ingredients, and made up the recipe. The tea partier mixed the cookie dough and the union guy put them in the oven and took them out.

Then the ceo gave each of the others 2 cookies each. The union guy said he would burn the next batch if he didn't get as many as the ceo.

That's the way it really went down.
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2011, 09:07:08 PM »

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Some day Iran will be democratic

the people of Iran have a high level of education.  education does not lead to a free society.  democracy does not lead to a free society. 

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I think the incentive has been removed but not by what you say.  I think that the American dream is no longer attainable for many of the bust your butt type A personalities.  Many Americans are indeed in the “get by” mode and may slump towards the moocher category because they can’t see the end of the tunnel.  You can definitely see this in today’s workplace.  No matter how hard you work you are not rewarded for your toil.  I have had many discussions with my children over the years that the way to succeed is with hard work and perseverance.  I have learned the error of my ways and know now that merit is a thing of the past.  If you can’t stomach taking advantage of every situation and stomp on your peers you will not advance.  It isn’t about hard work at all anymore.

if this is what you believe, it is true for you.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2011, 08:50:54 AM »

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the people of Iran have a high level of education.

All countries have a select few of educated people.  The women in Iran have no rights.  Do you think they are educated?  Tell us what percentage of the population you think is educated within its own boarders.
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« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2011, 12:12:22 AM »

And it would bring back sweatshops and child labor.

I find that very difficult to believe.  First, what's wrong with child labor?  Many people believe the lack of work ethic in many people is because they never learned how to work as a kid.  I find it interesting that children can work on the family farm, but you can't hire the neighbor computer whiz kid to fix your computer for you.

Even in the days when it was legal to hire kids in factories, it was illegal for parents to be lazy bums living off their kid's paychecks.

If you actually researched the origins and history of legislation against child labor, and the after effects of it - most rational people would be opposed to legislation against child labor.

Minimum wage affects first time employment usually with no benefits.

No, it doesn't.  Minimum wage affects marginally producing workers.  When minimum wages were imposed, anyone who wasn't profitable at that pay was laid off.  Many people lost jobs, and poverty increased.  Welfare also increased.

Didn't you just see what happened with minimum wage a few years ago?  We DEVASTATED an entire economy by imposing our minimum wages on them.  I don't remember which pacific island it was, but they packed tons of tuna.  They have a very low cost of living there, and their pay allows the local villagers to have a decent standard of living.  However, they get paid less than our minimum wage.  The US imposed our minimum wage on them, and the tuna canneries shut down and moved.  Rather than a minimum wage increasing the standard of living as is popularly believed it would, the minimum wage actually caused widespread poverty and a decline in the standard of living.

Kathy this is greed.  It wasn’t long ago he was bragging how much money he was making selling seeds on ebay.

Oh really?  How much money am I making?  How much should I be paying workers to weed the garden?
Did you also read that it is more cost effective for me to buy machinery to do menial tasks?
If that's greed, how rich am I getting?  I'm making money, but I'm far from rich.

It wouldn’t surprise me if he was evading taxes using ebay as the agent.


What taxes am I evading?  What tax liability can one avoid by using eBay?

He is obviously looking for an under the table work force.


Sounds like a good reason to buy machines to replace marginally productive workers.  That sounds like many factories today.

By definition revolutions are the will of the people.


Please show me where you came up with that definition, because I have NEVER heard of a revolution defined as 'the will of the people'. 

If the revolutionaries are successful then it is positive change.

Kinda like how the 1979 revolution in Iran overthrew the Shah, and they have had depression, poverty, rampant inflation, horrible civil rights, etc. ever since?

As far as minimum wage, I've seen a lot of people getting paid minimum wage and with the effort they put forth,it is probably twice what they are worth.
People that lack initiative are not my responsibility.


There used to be a common saying - the world needs ditch diggers too.  Ditch digging was a low paid job that required little thinking.  It was one of the lowest skilled jobs that anyone could do.  People with no initiative or just plain idiots were always qualified to be a ditch digger.

Some day China will be democratic.  The more the people become educated the faster it will happen.  Some day Iran will be democratic.

Educated people recognize how evil democracy is.  Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for lunch.  Truly educated people opt for a republican form of government with economic freedom and protection of personal property rights.

No matter how hard you work you are not rewarded for your toil.


And no matter how little you work, you still get rewarded for showing up, because you can get paid minimum wage....for as long as you have a job.

I have learned the error of my ways and know now that merit is a thing of the past.

No, there is still merit out there, especially if you work for yourself.  The more you bust your butt, the more you can make.  The wiser the investments you make, the more you build your wealth.  That's merit.

It isn’t about hard work at all anymore.

It was never about had work.  It's about working smart.

They worked eighty hours or more a week to make it.


In my younger days, I used to say that anything less than 70 hours a week felt like I was on vacation.  I would work 2 fulltime jobs, overtime at both, or I was working 2 jobs and one or two part time jobs.  100 hour weeks are brutal if you do them for any extended period of time.  You do learn how to make money faster than you can spend it though, which is a key economic principle to building wealth.

They took chances and invested with their paychecks.

Silver was up $1.44 today.  Since the beginning of February, it's up $7.35 an ounce. (25%+)  How many ounces would you need to own for your silver to increase in value as much as you made in your regular paycheck?  How many people bought silver?

Tell us what percentage of the population you think is educated within its own boarders.

Within its boarders or its borders?  They are different things.  (What were you saying about education again?)

Persia has a well deserved reputation for being educated.  They developed the first air conditioning systems thousands of years ago.  IIRC, they have well over a hundred thousand miles of qanats, with incredible engineering.  That's a highly educated society...of ditch diggers.
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« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2011, 03:14:02 AM »

CB, does the Hunt brothers sound familiar to you?

When somebody is manipulating the system behind the scenes for their own benefit, working harder and smarter doesn’t always get you a positive result.  Lots of people bust their butt and have nothing to show for it, or get wiped out on some investment scheme.  Lady down the road, lost her farm to such a scheme. 

I’m not suggesting people should stop trying, but I’m suggesting even good intentions can go wrong unless there are some checks and balances in the system.  A free for all capitalistic system just gets you a few Rockefeller's and 300 million slaves.

So are you a Jim Rodgers fan?  Is he promoting silver these days?  He does say the next “wall street” will be farming.  At some point the supply vs demand would certainly make that argument logical.
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« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2011, 06:55:02 AM »

If you take all risk out of investment,so goes the rewards.Not all investments are winners. 
I am friends with a man who has made substantial money. When I first knew him, his apartment refrigerator had a beer ball and a bottle of ketchup in it.A small table and three chairs.
I can tell you he tried and failed at a couple things. Nobody picked him up and dusted him off. He kept his focus on where he wanted to be.He overcame obstacles set before him.
He did not have a "quality" education. He went to grade 12 and graduated.
And all this without a government handout when he was "down on his luck".Minimum wage did not help him when times were tough.Not getting a check only further motivated him to work harder.
But,alas I know he should be more than willing to give it to those that think work is too much trouble,and self improvement should be the responsibility of others.
 I know some people who are not as well off,and I also know how many hours of the day they stand around telling others just how bad off they have it. I know if I'm hearing it,they stop other places to repeat the same story to anyone that will listen.
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« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2011, 10:39:58 AM »

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A free for all capitalistic system just gets you a few Rockefeller's and 300 million slaves.

It is worse than that.  We don't have a free capitalistic system.  It is subsidized for the Rockefeller's.

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If you take all risk out of investment,so goes the rewards.

It depends on who you are.

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How much should I be paying workers to weed the garden?

Minimum wage.  grin  It is the standard for our society.  And the purpose of it is to insure tax revenues not to raise standard of living.  What standard of living does one have on minimum wage?  Poverty.

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The wiser the investments you make, the more you build your wealth.
Total nonsense.  Investments are nothing more than legalized gambling.  Any broker that tells you differently is a liar.

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He does say the next “wall street” will be farming.  At some point the supply vs demand would certainly make that argument logical.


The supply and demand for farming is totally manipulated by the Rockefeller's.  Definitely not a free market system.
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« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2011, 11:27:48 AM »

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gets you a few Rockefeller's and 300 million slaves.

and yet many thousands of people were employed building the Rockefeller empire.  same with the Gates empire or the Jobs empire.  they risked their capitol and won.  along the way, many people won with them.  few people will be a gazillionaire, but many will be employed by them.

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Minimum wage.    It is the standard for our society.

and if it were not, more companies could hire more people and unemployment would be lower.  now we have subsidized laziness.

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Total nonsense.  Investments are nothing more than legalized gambling.

yes.  people gamble that they can make more money.  sometimes they win. sometimes they don't.  they  use THEIR OWN MONEY on the risk.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2011, 11:52:09 AM »

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more companies could hire more people and unemployment would be lower

I keep hearing that song but why wasn't it the case just a few years ago before the crash.  And why is it that the American financial gambling mistakes affected everyone else whether they had minimum wage, wealfare, or any social programs.  Why is that Kathy?  You think if we get rid of wealfare, and let the rich do whatever they want the world we be a better place.  Is that the theory?  Sounds like a left over trickle down theory that was tried already resulting in a crash nearly as devastating as the Great Depression and it ain't over yet so the true costs have not been tallied.

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they  use THEIR OWN MONEY on the risk.

Apparently you didn't lose your retirement that you worked for your whole life having never made an investment decision. Vaporized without even having a clue what was happening, completely out of your control.  It was your money though.  At least it looked that way on paper statements.
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« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2011, 12:11:17 PM »

because when business is booming and they need workers, they are perfectly willing to pay more.  when business is down, they are not.  they do not hire and make do with fewer workers.  if wage were tied to the market, a business owner could pay less and hire more people.  as business improved they would have to pay more to keep good and trained workers.  minimum wage takes market forces out of entry level hiring.  if i am forced to pay 8 dollars an hour for a burger flipper, i am going to hire the most experience burger flipper i can find, not the kid who could use some extra money for school and would be willing to work for 7 bucks.  minimum wage shuts people out of entry level jobs.

trickle down economics does work.  when people are successful, they hire.  when people are restricted by regulation, they do not.  when they are taxed heavily, they do not.  more than that, they do not spend.  consider how many people make money when a gazillionaire decides to buy another vacation home.  the bank, Realtor, contractor, gardener, furniture store, pool man, security company, property manager, etc.  not to mention the property taxes paid on a home when the owner probably is not using the services of the community.

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Apparently you didn't lose your retirement that you worked for your whole life having never made an investment decision. Vaporized without even having a clue what was happening, completely out of your control.  It was your money though.  At least it looked that way on paper statements.

life is about risk.  how you manage that risk is up to you.  in '98 i saw signs that the market was going south.  we changed our investments.  by 2000, many of those in the markets had lost money.  all the signs were there. one only had to look.  if you prefer to keep your money under you mattress, that is your choice.  there is no risk to that...other than the fact that money is worth less and you have lost just by not investing.....

you seem to wish for someone to walk you through life.  that is not the responsibility of the government, and not the responsibility of your fellow citizens. 

i do believe that the rewards of unregulated markets is worth it.  it is up to you to evaluate the risks and make your own decisions.  unfortunately, most of our population is like you.  they want someone to take all the risk out of life.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2011, 12:32:33 PM »

How about that 15 percent of every workers paycheck into social security. Thats and investment to be proud of!!
The only winners there were the ones who got in early.
If 15 percent of every check was put into your own account,it would give much better returns.Even if the rate of return was zero.
  This program was designed for a population that would die soon after retirement.

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« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2011, 03:33:19 PM »

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if i am forced to pay 8 dollars an hour for a burger flipper, i am going to hire the most experience burger flipper i can find, not the kid who could use some extra money for school and would be willing to work for 7 bucks. minimum wage shuts people out of entry level jobs.

Keep kidding yourself Kathy, fast food is busting out at the seams.  My brother has owned as many as four Subways and prior to the down turn he couldn’t get enough help and now there is no problem, on top of a sizable increase in business with a hike in the minimum wage to boot.  If you had 30 minutes of experience flipping burgers or 30 years, do you think the pay scale would be any different?  Please explain to us what industries have declined because of the minimum wage.  Big Ag?? Oil and power??  Computer chip??  Construction??  I am having a hard time coming up with one.  Oh, oh I know dry cleaning.  Those three-piece suits are getting real expensive to clean these days.  Oh yeah that brings up another one, janitorial and house cleaning.  I just can’t find anyone to do my carpets and clean my toilet because I too lazy to do it myself.

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unfortunately, most of our population is like you.
That’s a laugh.  If most of the population was like me politicians would not get paid until after their term was over, and the pay would be based on merit.  No law would be enacted that does not include everyone in the country.  No pensions, no bennies, or security of any kind after their terms.  These are smart people they ought to be able to finance their own retirement and well being.  If they didn’t do what they promised they wouldn’t get paid.  The choice to run again would be theirs of course.  Wall Street would not have been bailed out.  None of the “too big to fail” companies would have been bailed out.  You like a free market system don’t you Kathy?  So do I.  You just don’t know me.
Bush and Cheney would be stripped of all govy bennies and would be up on war crimes in an Islam state.  We would be out of every foreign country that we could not walk around with just a suit and tie instead of a rifle and an armored vehicle.  Free market system, right?  There would be no subsidies for any industry group or otherwise special interest.  Taxes would be fixed rate based on what you make however you make it starting above the poverty line.  No healthcare policies what so ever through your employer.  If a company wants to provide a benny, raise the person’s pay.  Insurance premiums for major medical would be based on risk just as it is with auto, and life.  You should be able to shop for the best premium nationally.  The government would provide for everyone basic health care funded by the dissolving of the military budget.  No one would be interested in taking us over anyway; we are nothing but a bunch of lazy people.  Isn’t that right Kathy?

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« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2011, 04:14:52 PM »

I don't think the industry declined. they just did not hire people that they felt were not up to the wage they had to pay.
 Funny thing,painters around here hired teachers on vacation for the summer rather than students looking for a job because the kids weren't worth the minimum wage.So much for that entry level job.I also see a lot of kids do not assist the landscapers because of the wages they have to pay.
They used to give some of the kids a job for the sake of helping a kid find some extra cash,but that becomes an unaffordable luxury with excess minimum wages.
  And what is enough minimum wage?perhaps it should be thirty dollars an hour so they can really stick it to the man.
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« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2011, 05:47:43 PM »

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I don't think the industry declined. they just did not hire people that they felt were not up to the wage they had to pay.

Thank you.  It pretty much blows Kathy's theory right out of the water.  It helps the business person weed out the lazy no good for nothing and at the same time raises the mark for that person to do better.  Win, win.
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« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2011, 08:34:33 PM »

CB, does the Hunt brothers sound familiar to you

Yes, I am familiar with the Hunt Brothers.  The story goes that they tried to corner the market on silver, which caused the highest price for silver of almost $50 an ounce.  It's just a story though.  While they were trying to corner the market, that was not the driving force behind the price spike, and the price spike did not even happen at the same time they were trying to corner the market.

A free for all capitalistic system just gets you a few Rockefeller's and 300 million slaves.


It didn't happen in America.  I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd suspect a pretty good majority of the 300 million Americans ended up being in the wealthy Rockefeller class. (top 10% in the world)

So are you a Jim Rodgers fan?  Is he promoting silver these days?

I'll listen to Jimmy, but don't follow him regularly.  I'm not quite ready to move to Singapore or Hong Kong (wherever he is).  I believe he is still bullish on silver.

He does say the next “wall street” will be farming.  At some point the supply vs demand would certainly make that argument logical.


The fundamentals make me bullish on agriculture and commodities also.

I know some people who are not as well off,and I also know how many hours of the day they stand around telling others just how bad off they have it. I know if I'm hearing it,they stop other places to repeat the same story to anyone that will listen.

It makes you wonder where they would be financially if they put half that energy into being productive.

Minimum wage.

Why should I waste my money paying someone minimum wage, when they are not providing a service worth minimum wage? 

It is the standard for our society.

If minimum wage was the standard for society, the common person on the street would be making minimum wage.  Minimum wage is NOT the standard pay for society - it is the government mandated starting pay for employees at the entry level (excepting certain occupations).

And the purpose of it is to insure tax revenues not to raise standard of living.

Do you have anything to back this up?  There is plenty of evidence to support the conclusion that the purpose of minimum wage is to reduce competition for higher paid (and often overpaid) workers.

What standard of living does one have on minimum wage?  Poverty.


That's bogus.  Currently, minimum wage is something like $7 an hour.  That's $14K a year.  If you know how to manage your money and live within their means, it's very realistic for someone earning minimum wage to achieve being in the top 10% of the wealthiest people in the world. (especially if they work extra hours)

Total nonsense.  Investments are nothing more than legalized gambling.  Any broker that tells you differently is a liar.

But you are allowed to stack the odds in your favor by investing.  Only an idiot invests blindly, without researching where they are investing their money.  A fool and their money are soon parted.

Read my post again.  Investing wisely will help you build your wealth.  There is nothing nonsense about that.  If you are a stupid idiot, and invest blindly - that's a good way to lose your wealth.

The supply and demand for farming is totally manipulated by the Rockefeller's.

Would you care to back that up, or are you still continuing to spew garbage online?  Anyone with half a brain has enough sense to recognize that the Rockefellers or the Rothschilds or anyone else have the ability to manipulate the need for people to eat.

Apparently you didn't lose your retirement that you worked for your whole life having never made an investment decision.

What kind of idiot never makes an investment decision in their retirement?  A fool and their money are soon parted. 

Vaporized without even having a clue what was happening, completely out of your control.

The only people who say that, are the ones who were too lazy/irresponsible to make investment decisions concerning their retirement funds.

If you had 30 minutes of experience flipping burgers or 30 years, do you think the pay scale would be any different?

Considering that the local McDonald's has been known to offer $10 an hour starting out, simply because they can't get folks who are willing to work - you can bet your butt they'd pay the person with 30 years of experience the $10 an hour.  They know minimum wage is wasted money on the kid with 30 minutes experience who won't show up for work half the time, and doesn't want to do anything the other half when they are there.

Please explain to us what industries have declined because of the minimum wage.


The textile industry took a terrible hit because of minimum wage.

Heck, look at every company that went overseas to hire cheaper labor - those industries took a hit here because of minimum wage.  The American people weren't legally allowed to compete with foreign workers in pay.

And what is enough minimum wage?perhaps it should be thirty dollars an hour so they can really stick it to the man.

Folks have been pushing for minimum wage to be a comfortable livable income, possibly even supporting a family on that income - rather than seeing it as an entry level pay for kids or retired folks who just want a few extra bucks.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2011, 08:43:03 PM »

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I don't think the industry declined. they just did not hire people that they felt were not up to the wage they had to pay.

Thank you.  It pretty much blows Kathy's theory right out of the water.  It helps the business person weed out the lazy no good for nothing and at the same time raises the mark for that person to do better.  Win, win.

But isn't that what Kathy said  huh
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