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Author Topic: Answering Kathy's question  (Read 10905 times)
BlueBee
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2011, 04:58:17 PM »

Unlike a company or a state or a family, the Feds can print any amount of money they want and hence they can live by different rules.  They can “pay off the debt” without actually paying, via inflating the dollar.  Realistically the only way out of this much debt is to inflate our way out.  Some cuts would also be good, I won’t argue that. 

Does anybody remember the HUGE debts Reagan ran up?  At the time, nobody believed we would ever pay off that debt.  Remember the big bill board they had running in Manhattan showing how much debt we all owed?  So what programs did we cut to eliminate the Reagan and Bush1 debt?  I can’t think of anything too significant even though Clinton did try.  So where did the Reagan/Bush1 debt go?
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2011, 05:23:19 PM »

they never went anywhere.  we have not been out of debt for decades.  the Clinton surplus  never materialized because of a recession at the end of his presidency.  debt by itself is not the issue.  debt as a percentage of GDP is a big deal.  continued deficit spending is a big deal.

if you have a 400 dollar car payment and make 4000 a month, that payment is not a big deal.  if you have a 400 dollar car payment and make 1000 dollars a year, it's a bigger deal.  if you have a 400 dollar car payment, an 800 dollar house payment, and you make 1000 dollars, you are in trouble.  if you borrow the difference every  month, you will not only never get out of debt, but you will add to it each month because of what you have borrowed and the interest on what you have borrowed.  

production and growth happen primarily in the private sector.  the more government grows, taxes, and restricts, the private sector, the less production.  in the end, less tax coming into the government to service the debt even if they stop spending.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2011, 06:13:59 PM »

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but not willing to pay more taxes to the giant blackhole that it is right now.

You don't get the choice.  They already borrowed the money and spent it on the rich.  The not so rich got promises that they will never see.

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So only people who manufacture stuff work?

Of course not but manufacturing is the only way to improve the country's standard of living for the general population.
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2011, 06:21:34 PM »

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Realistically the only way out of this much debt is to inflate our way out.

Well that is one way of bringing back manufacturing.  But here again that is just another tax on the middle class and a way to cut pay scales across the board.  It will also hugely affect senior citizens.
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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2011, 06:39:56 PM »

Kathy, I’ going to concede you’re right, that Reagan/Bush 1 debt never did go away!  I guess I got that confused with Clinton’s balanced budget efforts. 

I still predict the only way out of this much debt is inflation.  Where is Congress going to AGREE to cut 14 trillion?

When the Fed is buying up our own debt (buying Treasuries) they are making new money out of thin air, that is a prescription for inflation (devaluing the dollar, valuing up the yuan).  Sure looks to me like they have a plan to eliminate some of this debt even if Congress doesn’t.

You are 100% correct AceBird, on both accounts.  There is good and there is bad with inflation.   We should have never gotten into this mess in the first place.
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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 06:43:02 PM »

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debt as a percentage of GDP is a big deal.
I think you mean GNP?

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production and growth happen primarily in the private sector.  the more government grows, taxes, and restricts, the private sector, the less production.


Does it make any sense for the government to tax the government?  Where else will the taxes come from?  I don't get the restricts angle.  Who is the government restricting thereby lowering production?  Government Motors or Toyota?

Increased military spending produces jobs temporally.  The problem is when people get tired of the make believe wars we start these wars find a way to end.  That leaves a big hole in our economy.  And a few select millionares walk away with a huge satchel of money that they made of the war that they started.
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« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 07:12:11 PM »

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I still predict the only way out of this much debt is inflation.


it is not the only solution, but it seems to be the one this government will choose.

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Who is the government restricting thereby lowering production

how about drilling in the gulf for one example.  1000's of jobs lost.  millions in income and those taxes gone.  

the largest part of the government budget is entitlements.  until someone has the nuts to attack that problem, there is no long term solution.  

up until recently, we had the 2nd highest corporate tax rate.  we were second only to japan.  japan just rolled it's corporate tax rate back.  if you combine state and federal tax, we are now highest.  we have some of the highest personal taxes if you combine the two.  there are a few of the European social welfare states that beat us on personal taxes.  taxes take money out of the private sector and give them to non-producers.  48% of the people in the US pay no federal income tax.  
a business does not exist to hire people, provide health care, or pay taxes.  it exists to make money.  if you want business to be attracted to your country or state, you have to provide and environment that is competitive.  some states are getting that.  the feds are not.

no, i meant GDP.  it is a more relevant and steady  number when calculating market value of production.

there is no justification for growing the government at the current rate.  every department, employee, and program takes money from the private sector.  it is a fact that government has been growing for years, but never at it's current rate.  it's going to take some big slashing and some hard choices to get government under control.  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 08:52:26 PM »

You don't understand it?  Corporate greed is lining your pockets with gold at the expense of someone else.  Having a tax payer bail you out for YOUR mistakes and then taking a huge bonus for doing so.  BTW that is socialism.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Get your story straight.  Corporations have no pockets to line - people do.  Corporate greed involves corporations - not people.  Are you suggesting that 'corporate greed' is just what happens when corporations receive bailouts?

I am personally opposed to socialism.  I am all in favor of free trade, and people lining their pockets with gold due to their hard work or their investments paying off.  I am all in favor of hiring workers to work for me, and those workers make me money which lines my pockets.

If you don't understand how corporate greed is the root cause of the decline of the middle class then commenting on your other off beat remarks is fruitless.

You fail to define what corporate greed is, while confusing 'corporate greed' with symptoms resulting from this 'corporate greed.'  The decline of the bourgeois is due to them stopping working for themselves, and instead working for others.

I still don't have any idea how the government is going to pay for all those social entitlement programs  and other types of entitlement programs that have landed us 13 trillion + dollars in debt.


I do. I do.  Inflation of the money supply, resulting in hyperinflation.  Remember the Weimar Republic?  Remember Zimbabwe, and their $100 trillion dollar bills?

Our countries tax structure is based on people working and not just stocking shelves at Wal-Mart.

What are you talking about?  The government gets pennies from income taxes.  Have you forgotten other ways the government gets its money, such as tariffs and duties?

If you remove manufacturing from our home soil you have eliminated our employment opportunities.

Manufacture is not where wealth is created.  Wealth is created with agriculture, mining, fishing, etc.  You need a strong agricultural base, and there are always job opportunities in agriculture.  Become a commercial beekeeper if you want a job.

Of course not but manufacturing is the only way to improve the country's standard of living for the general population.

The only way?  Where do you come up with this?  Try low taxes, little government intrusion and regulation, and sound money.  Heck, just get sound money, and you will see an improvement in the standard of living.

Well that is one way of bringing back manufacturing.

How will an increase in the money supply bring back manufacturing?

But here again that is just another tax on the middle class and a way to cut pay scales across the board.  It will also hugely affect senior citizens.

No, increasing M3 affects EVERYONE.  It is not limited to just the middle class or senior citizens.  The class of people it affects the worst are the savers, regardless if they are poor, middle class, or rich people who save.

Does it make any sense for the government to tax the government?


That is the only thing the Federal Government has the lawful authority to tax.  Itself.

Where else will the taxes come from?

Why do we need to look anywhere else?  The Federal Government is fully capable of financing itself by taxing itself.

The problem is when people get tired of the make believe wars we start these wars find a way to end.

They still haven't ended the war they started in 1860.  What are you talking about?  Look at all the military installations around the world - how can you possibly say the wars come to an end?  Look at the CIA and its role in overthrowing governments - how can you possibly suggest anything other than a constant state of war in the future?

And a few select millionares walk away with a huge satchel of money that they made of the war that they started.


They aren't millionaires.  They are billionaires.  Odds are, they have 5% of all the gold in the world in their private vault too.  Wink

it is not the only solution, but it seems to be the one this government will choose.

Their only other option is to default.  Helicopter Ben (and all his cronies) has made it clear that default is not an option he is willing to follow.  They worship the idiot known as John Maynard Keynes.

no, i meant GDP.  it is a more relevant and steady  number when calculating market value of production.


Relevant and steady?  Ha ha.  Flipping burgers is classified as manufacturing.  If you develop a computer that runs twice as fast, it gets counted double on GDP, even though the human operator can only type as fast as they could on the old computer.  The numbers are so cooked that no government number is reliable, relevant, or steady.

They don't even track M3 anymore.

it is a fact that government has been growing for years, but never at it's current rate.

Obama has also spent more money than every administration before him combined.
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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 09:04:40 PM »

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it is a more relevant and steady  number when calculating market value of production
Relevant and steady?  Ha ha

thus the "more" before the "relevant".  none of the numbers are gospel.   Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2011, 09:24:35 PM »

That's a mild understatement.

A good rule of thumb is the 2, 3 rule when looking at government stats.  If they give you good news, divide by 2.  If they give you bad news, multiply by 3.  For some reason, applying the 2, 3 rule will generally give you figures that are fairly accurate.
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« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2011, 09:51:58 PM »

ya know here is the thing that most people don't understand about the government it's only been in the last 100+ years that debt became a problem.  before that we had a small government controlled by the people and the states.  all that changed when we decided to stick our noses into world affairs that have nothing to do with us.  we gave power from the states to the people okay so now the feds can hold states hostage when it comes to putting federal programs into states.  we cut the BS go back to what the founding fathers envisioned for us and poof no more wars cause we aren't sticking our nose where it don't belong.  no more government programs that drain tax dollars from our economy.  problem solved but it will never happen cause the ones that are in charge will never give the power back.  so we are stuck with a bunch of idot kids with their daddy's credit card and he's never gonna come back.  it's party time baby burn baby burn. 
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« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2011, 09:15:57 AM »

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You fail to define what corporate greed is

I did define it but you don't want to listen:

Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth or goods with the intention to keep it for one's self. Greed - like lust and gluttony - is a sin of excess. Greed is inappropriate expectation. However, greed is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

It doesn’t matter whether it is applied to a person or a corporation.  A Corporation is an entity that is driven by PEOPLE.  The entity is incapable of doing anything without people.  If someone exercises greed someone else suffers.

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I am all in favor of hiring workers to work for me, and those workers make me money which lines my pockets.
And if you could hire illegal aliens that will work for 50 cent and hour you will take all you can get.  Then throw your hands up in the air when a government program wants to educate the children to lower crime.  Of course they don’t live next to you so it isn’t your problem is it?  It is hard to see greed if you are part of it.

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Manufacture is not where wealth is created. Wealth is created with agriculture, mining, fishing, etc. You need a strong agricultural base, and there are always job opportunities in agriculture.


I will agree you can attain wealth by growing something, but agriculture, mining, fishing, drilling for oil etc are industries, all part of manufacturing goods and services.

China has acquired enormous wealth without the use of agriculture.  Sadly they have been able to do it without using their own natural resources.  They import raw materials, manufacture goods and ship them across the world.  One of the reasons for our success is that we (US) had most of the raw materials we needed within our boarders.  That reason doesn’t hold water anymore.

how about drilling in the gulf for one example. 1000's of jobs lost. millions in income and those taxes gone.

Not to worry Kathy, thousands of people will die because of that spill so they won’t need jobs anyway.  When they die they won’t need any social programs either so taxes are of no concern, right?

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« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2011, 05:38:17 PM »

We don't have our own natural resources? Better check again. Clinton placed one of the largest reserves of low sulfur coal off limits.We have a lot of natural gas. We have a lot of oil.We could have a lot more nuclear energy at our disposal if they would let them build more power plants.
We could have a lot more hydroelectric if we could build dams.We still have iron ore in this country. Government regulations make it cheaper to get elsewhere.
People do not want industry in their back yard.Industry goes somewhere else.
China does not have this problem Their agriculture is destroyed. Many places have to hand pollinate because they killed off all the pollinators in their supreme econ my over their.
China does not let enviromentalists force clean water,clean air or saving a fish block their plans.
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« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2011, 08:10:40 PM »

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We don't have our own natural resources? Better check again.

Who said that?

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People do not want industry in their back yard.

I look around and I see big Ag everywhere.  No body wants their environment polluted so you can't live on it or you suffer from illness.  If you move the plants to areas that are depressed and uneducated you will be dealing with governments that don't care about their own people so they certainly don't care about you.  You will find a host of problems with different regulations that you didn't expect.  Some times the costs work in your benefit but many times they don't.

I feel very strongly that if a company decides to go off shore they should be taxed heavily for goods brought into this country.  Foreign companies that want to invest in a plant over here should get a brake on what is made here and pay the high tax rate for what isn't.  These taxes are necessary to pay the overhead in Washington that would be paid if products were made here.
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« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 08:37:24 PM »

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Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth or goods with the intention to keep it for one's self. Greed - like lust and gluttony - is a sin of excess. Greed is inappropriate expectation. However, greed is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

and who determines what is greed?

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And if you could hire illegal aliens that will work for 50 cent and hour you will take all you can get.  Then throw your hands up in the air when a government program wants to educate the children to lower crime.  Of course they don’t live next to you so it isn’t your problem is it?  It is hard to see greed if you are part of it.

and if there were not minimum wage you could hire people according to market forces and need. 

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Then throw your hands up in the air when a government program wants to educate the children to lower crime.


since we have some of the worst public education stats in the 1st world, and since kids that get into crime usually don't stay in school anyway, yes...i throw up my hands and wonder what the heck I'm paying for.

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feel very strongly that if a company decides to go off shore they should be taxed heavily for goods brought into this country.


so you want to punish a company for doing what's in it's best interest and punish the consumer by punishing the company.  wouldn't it make more sense to make the US a business friendly country?

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success is that we (US) had most of the raw materials we needed within our boarders.

and we still have those resources.  however, we have made it cost prohibitive to mine, drill, and more and more, to grow things like cotton.  BTW, as of 2009, the US was still the number on manufacturer in the word.  it is a myth that manufacturing is gone from this country.  we could do much better, but when labor and regulation cost make it more cost effective to manufacture overseas, companies will do that when they can.  that's business.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 10:56:42 PM »

Greed is an excessive desire
Greed is inappropriate expectation.

If someone exercises greed someone else suffers.


Someone would have to be a complete idiot to believe that.
You can have all the excessive desires and inappropriate expectations imaginable, and NO ONE will suffer for it.

And if you could hire illegal aliens that will work for 50 cent and hour you will take all you can get.

How can you say what I would, or would not do?  How can you say with any certainty that you know what is best for MY life?

I'll pass on the 50 cent workers, because you get what you pay for.  Cheap labor costs you money.  You don't get skilled labor for 50 cents.  I don't have a problem paying skilled labor a fair pay, because they will make me money.

Then throw your hands up in the air when a government program wants to educate the children to lower crime.

Educating children doesn't lower crime.  Crime happens when government criminalizes everything.


I will agree you can attain wealth by growing something, but agriculture, mining, fishing, drilling for oil etc are industries, all part of manufacturing goods and services.

No, agriculture is not a part of manufacturing goods and services.  Manufacturing goods and adding value to the agricultural goods come after the agricultural wealth has already been produced.

China has acquired enormous wealth without the use of agriculture.

You are a liar.  China has relied HEAVILY on agriculture.  Their manufacturing ability would be minimal without the mined coal which powers their factories.  Why do you think they have such problems with air pollution?

Sadly they have been able to do it without using their own natural resources.

More complete garbage.  Anyone who has a clue knows that China uses quite a bit of their own resources.  Where do you think rare earths come from?  Why do you think everyone is crapping bricks now that China is talking about reducing exports of their rare earths?

They import raw materials, manufacture goods and ship them across the world.

They are importing stuff because they have fistfulls of dollars, and they know they have to spend the money on something, because M3 inflation is eating up the value if they hold onto their dollars.

One of the reasons for our success is that we (US) had most of the raw materials we needed within our boarders.  That reason doesn’t hold water anymore.


Many countries have a wealth of natural resources.  Africa has TONS of resources, and many countries are still little more than subsistence living.

how about drilling in the gulf for one example. 1000's of jobs lost. millions in income and those taxes gone.

And the jobs created by the new oil deposits to rival Saudi Arabia...in North Dakota? 

thousands of people will die because of that spill so they won’t need jobs anyway.


We wouldn't need to be drilling out in the gulf, with the risk of spills and environmental damage, if we hadn't made it so difficult for the oil companies to drill on land.

When they die they won’t need any social programs either so taxes are of no concern, right?


People don't need any socialist programs now.  They just 'want' them.

I look around and I see big Ag everywhere.

Would you please define 'Big Ag'?  I don't know what it is.  I used to help a farmer whenever I was laid off from machine shops.  Is he big ag?

No body wants their environment polluted so you can't live on it or you suffer from illness.

Including farmers who farm big acreages.

and if there were not minimum wage you could hire people according to market forces and need.

A very good point Kathy.  All minimum wage has done is to lose jobs for people who were marginally productive.  If a person is only worth $5 an hour, and minimum wage is $6, they lose their job.  Instead of being able to make some money, they are flat broke.  I am money ahead to buy, maintain, and operate a rototiller with minimum wage at $7+.  If there was no minimum wage, I'd consider hiring some teenage kids and paying them a lesser amount to weed the garden in evenings or weekends.  They would make a little money, and I would save a little money.  As it is, I pay more for the equipment, and they make no money.

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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2011, 02:12:41 AM »

>all revolutions bring positive change for the general population.

I would say you listed a few that ended well...

Most every revolution in South America has ended badly, as did the Russian Bolshevik revolution, the communist revolution in China and many other places.  Revolutions are almost always taken over by the greedy and the power hungry and seldom end well.  If it were not for the moral fiber of men like George Washington and Ben Franklin and the many other founding fathers, I'm sure ours would have ended badly as well.  They offered George the Monarchy of our country and he turned it down...
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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2011, 09:02:19 AM »

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*if there were not minimum wage you could hire people according to market forces and need. *
And it would bring back sweatshops and child labor.  After that strong labor unions, after that it swings the other way with unrealistic demands from labor unions and then a down turn.  Didn’t the country just run this course?

Minimum wage affects first time employment usually with no benefits.  Very few full time employees are working minimum wage (considered poverty by US standards).  So I get if Kathy you want sweatshops, child labor and no healthcare.  And you said we don’t have a class system?

Child labor:
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*I'd consider hiring some teenage kids and paying them a lesser amount to weed the garden in evenings or weekends.*
Kathy this is greed.  It wasn’t long ago he was bragging how much money he was making selling seeds on ebay.  It wouldn’t surprise me if he was evading taxes using ebay as the agent.  He is obviously looking for an under the table work force.

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*I would say you listed a few that ended well... *
By definition revolutions are the will of the people.  If the revolutionaries are successful then it is positive change.  Whether it lasts or not is another question.  Like you say revolutions get taken over by the power hungry rulers they overthrew.  This only means history will repeat itself and happen again some time down the road.  What will evolve is a form of a democratic society.  We as a world of human beings should prevent genocide and that’s it.  Absolutely nothing else.

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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2011, 06:53:16 PM »

Taxing goods heavily coming on to our shores makes it so much easier to sell our goods abroad. that is a two edged sword.
Acebird,you said we once had most of the raw materials before,but that no longer holds water.
   As far as minimum wage, I've seen a lot of people getting paid minimum wage and with the effort they put forth,it is probably twice what they are worth.
People that lack initiative are not my responsibility. If we would hone the system to just help the truly needy rather than create a society that lacks initiative because someone else will carry them,this nation would soon be on top again.  A lazy society is bringing us to our knees,plain and simple.
   You can't blame all our troubles on big ag and corporations. Shut them all down and see what you get.
You don't really think all these executives buy special food with lower risk of contaminants than you or I buy?
  Where is it in their interest to purposely poison themselves?

Unlike some,I don't see a conspiracy around every corner. I try to look ahead with optimism,not pessimism.
Sometimes,if you take care of the little things,the big things will take care of themselves.


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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2011, 12:36:43 AM »

>By definition revolutions are the will of the people.

I don't think it was the will of the people for Stalin to kill somewhere between 16 and 60 million people.  It certainly was not the will of the victims or their families.

By definition:

"A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time. Its use to refer to political change dates from the scientific revolution occasioned by Copernicus' famous De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium. Aristotle described two types of political revolution:
   1. Complete change from one constitution to another
   2. Modification of an existing constitution."

There is nothing about the people's will involved in the definition.

> If the revolutionaries are successful then it is positive change.

>They are often successful.  Mao Tse Tung took over China.  It seems pretty successful for him.    His Cultural Revolution wiped out all democratic and capitalistic influences and imprisoned and killed anyone who believed in free thought.  Not exactly positive change... but change, of course.

>Whether it lasts or not is another question.  Like you say revolutions get taken over by the power hungry rulers they overthrew.

No, they get taken over by other power hungry people like Lenin and Stalin and Mao.  Almost every time.

>  This only means history will repeat itself and happen again some time down the road.

For Mao and Stalin it was a lifetime down the road.  If you died in a Gulag it's not much comfort that someday the communists would be pushed out of power...

>  What will evolve is a form of a democratic society.

No.  What evolves is always some variation of Feudalism.  It's what Anarchy always evolves into if there is no structure to cause it to be something else.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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