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Author Topic: And then there's THIS...!  (Read 6111 times)
BjornBee
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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2011, 11:58:24 AM »

For anyone who wants to know what bullship is talking about....






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Acebird
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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2011, 03:43:41 PM »

I would think the wall mounted air conditioner is illegal but maybe not.  All the cardboard should be illegal but food prep maybe more relaxed then medical.  Certainly the cardboard on the floor has got to be illegal.  Loves?? huh

How many pounds of honey does this facility produce?
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BjornBee
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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2011, 03:56:42 PM »

I would think the wall mounted air conditioner is illegal but maybe not.  

Yes....you are wrong. It is not.

All the cardboard should be illegal but food prep maybe more relaxed then medical.  

What's wrong with cardboard? Most food comes in it.

 Certainly the cardboard on the floor has got to be illegal.  Loves?? huh

When you not in "operation" there is nothing wrong with what you put on the floor. When in operation, you can not have anything on the floor. You must have everything that you could pick up and put on a table, 6" off the floor on stainless steel stands. 5 gallon bucket....on a stand. 55 gallon drum....on the floor.

They do not expect a facility in operation to be "Inspectable condition" 365 days a year. I don't have to have my hot water tank on every day, or disinfectant in the sink 24 hours a day. They know in March, I am not extracting honey, and if they happen to walk in, they don't blink an eye if I use the room for some storage. They know who is operating fine, and those that are not.

 Loves?? huh

No clue what you are talking about.

How many pounds of honey does this facility produce?

None of your business.  Wink
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 04:21:28 PM by BjornBee » Logged

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BjornBee
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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2011, 04:37:13 PM »

One side note about some misinformed comments about inspectors not looking at the small guys....

About 10 years ago, this was true. Once you passed your initial inspection, you might not ever see an inspector again as a honey facility. Honey ranks very low on the risk ladder. milk, dairy, slaughter houses, etc., all were the priority.

Over the past 20 years in Pennsylvania, the state cut inspectors from about 55 positions to about 20. You see, there just was not many significant problems, and many facilities (like honey houses) just did not demand yearly inspections.

But the state (and the Union) caught on, and figured to use a few isolated problems (to keep us all safe of course) to call for increased inspections and bulk up the number of inspectors. Now, instead of casually looking the other way and not really checking in on such places like honey houses, they use the letter of the law to inspect every facility yearly. You see....that is job protection. That means more inspectors for the state. That is more union paying dues. And those number of inspectors once again are at numbers not seen in many years.

Seems state positions have really expanded in the past couple years with few noticing.

So don't kid yourself. job security and justification for the positions translates into actual inspections of EVERY facility, and you better believe they are out to find something.

I'm sure the same model is not just confined to Pennsylvania.
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Acebird
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« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2011, 04:46:23 PM »

Quote
What wrong with cardboard? Most food comes in it.

Cardboard is a breeding ground for flees, germs, bacteria, mold, and algae.  All it needs is moisture.
Container board has a wax coating and is resistant to these problems.  Usually only frozen foods or dry ingredients are packed in this type of board.  Many times there is a sealed plastic liner that the food is packed in first.

Quote
No clue what you are talking about.

Sorry misspelled it, Luvs diapers.  Second photo, lower right.

Quote
They do not expect a facility in operation to be "Inspectable condition" 365 days a year.

Ooh, don't say that to loud.  Your inspector might not care but I am sure that is not in the regs.  The whole purpose of the stainless and hard walls is to control contamination.  If you close a restaurant and reopen it later on there would be a re-qualification of the facility.  There is no way you can do anything you want when you are not processing honey.  Be careful who you say that to.  The next inspector may not be so lenient.
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rdy-b
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« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2011, 04:47:36 PM »

  There was allot of Humbug stirred up in 2002 with the BIO-TEROISOM ACT
 for the inspections of food processing locations-would of put the hurt to allot
of small Beekeeping operations-but when the dust settled in california we got the green light
with farm exemptions-as long as we sell from our farm there are many interpretations of that-RDY-B
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Acebird
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« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2011, 05:02:35 PM »

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None of your business.


Touchy aren't we.  Smiley

I asked because you can make the process self contained whereby the frames are capped, extracted, sieved, and the honey packaged into buckets without touching human hands.  In itself the machine is the facility and controls contamination.  You would just need a sanitizing program after the honey is packaged for the next run depending on the time lapsed.  Possibly the machine would be blister wrapped if it were a long time.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2011, 05:08:34 PM »

Acebird,
You never stop do you.

You question someone about a $10,000 facility, and I show you a simply facility that would cost that much that does little more than process honey.

Then you analyse the photo commenting on such things as air conditioners, to which you have no clue.

Now you comment on things I have already discussed with my assigned inspector. As I said, they do not require the facility to be up and running from the sense that the hot water needs to be on daily, or that I need to have disinfectant in the sink.

They may, because they understand I only operate my facility a few days each year, ask to visit on one of those few days when I am extracting. So If they ask, I let them know when we will be up and running. The rest of the year, they don't care about me disconnecting the water tank in winter, storing some boxes, or any other anal thing you keep bringing up. About the only thing they want to see is the water certificate.

And you comments about cardboard in a food processing facility is way off also, but of course you know best.

It's funny how one day your suggesting nobody looks at small honey guys, then you making it sound like they are running up guys butts worried about cardboard. Every glass jar I buy comes in cardboard boxes. That is why you have a wash, rinse, and disinfect sink. You clean the glass jars prior to using them.

I personally know my inspector. I don't need to "hush" anything. I know what they require, they know what I do, and it's no big deal.

Is there anything else you want to pick over in the photos?
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« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2011, 05:22:27 PM »

Do you realize Honey is one of the best,if not the best inhibitor of bacterial infections? This is not the same as processing hanging livestock in a slaughterhouse. I think someone wants to pick a fight at every post.
Nice extracting room Bjorn!
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The Bix
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« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2011, 09:02:14 PM »

Back to the original subject...this is one of the best explanations of why laissez faire / capitalism is the worst economic system (except for every other economic system)

Milton Friedman - Greed


I miss Uncle Milty.
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hardwood
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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2011, 09:56:46 PM »

I've got something to pick on Mike. I personally think the decor is a little drab. Maybe a splash of color here and there would help to keep the working class in a better mind set? Maybe pipe in some soothing music...Yanni perhaps?

Great honey room, I'm jealous.

Scott
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rdy-b
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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2011, 10:50:03 PM »

 I would like to know is that really a air-conditioner
or do you use it for dehumidifier--RDY-B
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oliver
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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2011, 07:01:25 AM »

Bjorn  Very nice facility,,Years ago a teenager could go to work here about any time  small farmers  always needed help. Thats long gone..16 yr old grandson had expressed interest in the bee stuff in top of the barn, big kid willing to work but very little avail..In my infinite wisdom suggested setibg up a few colonies, he could help learn and sell, havent told him yet the government probably won't allow this to happen..Contemplating doing the upgrade.. even though I disagree with the regs, don't think it would be a very good lesson, teaching  akid maybe how to fly under the radar..Then again if they keep pilling on restrictions, that might come in handy some day..take care , have a very nice day
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Acebird
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« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2011, 10:20:55 AM »

Quote
Then you analyse the photo commenting on such things as air conditioners, to which you have no clue.


I am only trying to help you (maybe some others too) understand what contamination is and how to prevent it.  I am not experienced in the food industry but I am experienced in the medical industry.  Control of contamination is very similar.

In a medical facility you would have to remove the jars from the cardboard box outside the room and place in a plastic bin / cart before bringing them in the room to be sanitized.  You are not allowed to bring in ANY cardboard into the room because it will instantly contaminate the sanitized jars with fibrous particulate in the air.  You could spend 100,000 bucks on a class 100 clean room and it is useless if you bring in one cardboard box.  You have a nice pretty room there but with the wrong procedures it is all for not.
If the hot water tank is not used continually it has to be shut off and drained.  Hot stored water will grow bacteria that can kill you.  It is better to at least turn the heat off even if you don’t drain it.  NEVER mix or drink water from the hot water tap.

Quote
>Do you realize Honey is one of the best,if not the best inhibitor of bacterial infections? This is not the same as processing hanging livestock in a slaughterhouse.<


Yes I do.  And I am glad you brought that up.  Rather than signing petitions which will be as effective in Washington as throwing sand against the tide, standards should be created for honey based on scientific evidence as to what is REQUIRED to process honey safely.  People, (beeks and regulators) should be educated as to what procedures are safe.  Not just be friends with the inspectors because not everybody can be an inspector’s friend.  The scientific community can very easily prove that the equipment required to process honey is no where near as critical as the direction that government is going.  Regulation yes, inspection yes, but to what standards before some bureaucrat goes off the deep end and then there is no changing it?

You can think of me as a buffoon, argumentative, or whatever the hay you want.  It won’t make a difference to me.  Or you could listen in the unlikely case that I know something that you don’t.

IMO a metal building is more than adequate to process honey for a one-month operation per year.  You can even get them climate controlled almost anywhere in the country.
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/motorcycle_thumbnail.jpg



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Bee Happy
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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2011, 11:20:30 AM »

If you apply an "engineers hammer" to a thumbtack - you have engaged in overkill. If you send a neurosurgeon to recreate molding designed by Frank Lloyd Wright - you have engaged in wasteful management of funds and a profound misapplication of experience. If you go to the expense of building a room fit to build pentium chips in order to extract and package the most bacteria resistant EDIBLE natural chemical compound known to man - you are your own worst problem.
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Acebird
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2011, 11:52:31 AM »

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If you go to the expense of building a room fit to build pentium chips in order to extract and package the most bacteria resistant EDIBLE natural chemical compound known to man - you are your own worst problem.

Precisely my point, it is not the room that is as important as the procedure you use in the room.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2011, 12:28:12 PM »

I concede abject failure - I brought logic to a mud slinging competition. you win.
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2011, 01:15:20 PM »

All those infections I've died from from drinking hot tap water have been doozies.

There's sensible, and silly overkill.

Here we have honey, which has been sucked from gritty flowers into an insect's stomach flown who knows how far, stuck in a dusty beehive, cured and often contaminated with some type of foreign material (usually wood fibers, but including wax moth poop), and then capped.  Dragged off a hive, possibly dumped on the ground, dumped on trucks, moved hither and yon....

...and you are worried about a miniscule ridiculously small amount of cardboard particles?

I'd be much more worried about a highway or large road within a few hundred feet of my hives.

 rolleyes
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Rick
Acebird
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2011, 02:06:57 PM »

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...and you are worried about a miniscule ridiculously small amount of cardboard particles?
I think you are missing my whole point.
It is because of this :

Quote
Here we have honey, which has been sucked from gritty flowers into an insect's stomach flown who knows how far, stuck in a dusty beehive, cured and often contaminated with some type of foreign material (usually wood fibers, but including wax moth poop), and then capped. Dragged off a hive, possibly dumped on the ground, dumped on trucks, moved hither and yon....
That you don’t need this.

  First photo posted I can't retrieve it.

But it is only the scientific community that can do the research, testing, and documentation that will prove to GOVERNMENT  what we as layman believe to be true.  What I know through my experiences is it makes no sense at all to build a $10000+ clean room if you are going to contaminate it with cardboard, pampers, dog hair, chicken feathers or any other material you seem fit to bring into the room when you are not using it for its intended purposes.

Where is the important part in all this?  Should government insure that the place you pack the honey in containers is a class 100 clean room or should they be concerned with the toxic chemicals introduced into the hive or onto the plants which eventually makes its way into the honey?.  Should a supplier’s honey be tested for contamination level or ingredients that are not really honey?  I think so for the first few runs.

I am for regulating what matters.  Simple proven procedures like wearing hair nets, smocks and rubber gloves when you are packing honey.  Washing containers and knowing how to keep them clean before the lid is put on.  These are minimal costs that any back yard beek can adopt.
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oliver
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2011, 02:56:05 PM »

You are preaching to the choir. These are gov regulations not my ideas.. Do know from past experiance with the epa and osha and their gestapo tactics, gov inspectors with a reg book and a clip board are a formidable force, and you are completely at their mercy..Anyone that worked construction in the 70s and delt with osha can probably testify to this.. Most of those rediculous regs are now either off the books or not enforced, as may well go this ruling on honey production, but while it is enforce, beware, they hit where it hurts right in your bank account.Got hit for my crew not wearing hardhats on a residential roof, space debris I guess, don't see any roofers wearing hard hats now, here anyway My Granddad kept bees,   for 50+ yrs , I remember cranking his galvanized extractor. and helping clean galvanized tanks..Surprised any of us or the hundreds of customers he had survived..have fun day..
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