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Author Topic: And then there's THIS...!  (Read 6382 times)
BjornBee
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2011, 09:44:38 AM »

 People here have suggested ways of making your efforts more effective and you don't even want to here it.  

Wrong again.... in just another useless jab. next time, please word it to suggest your own opinion, and please do not put words in my mouth, or think you know what I do and do not want.
I never said I did not want to hear it.

I said that I could not change the details for each and every point that dozens of people have suggested. That changing for one, fosters another change. And that at the end of the day, it never stops. You can not make everyone happy, and you get nowhere but stuck in the mud. I in fact have added, and changed some of the wording used. I have also received emails from some suggesting changes and word editing that was very much appreciated. I consider those people helpful. They understood that they could be helpful without needing to bolster their egos or slamming the effort publicly.  

I explained my efforts. And I suggested that those who want to support it...please do. Those who are worried about some particular detail and want to rationalize it for justification to do nothing, and not sign the petition, that is fine also.

But saying that I "do not want to hear it" is once again wrong, and denigrates the overall effort. But thank you for your "supposed" concerns, and your understanding.  rolleyes

Now may I suggest going back to buying some ice cream and continue relegating any chance of improving the bee industry or making a change, to an ice cream company.  Wink
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 10:03:00 AM by BjornBee » Logged

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Acebird
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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2011, 12:08:35 PM »

You could compare it to a ice cream stand that operates 3 months out of the year.  The chances are you would never see the FDA or any other official on the premises once you passed the first inspection.  You wouldn't want to get sick from the ice cream would you?  Why is honey different?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 06:34:39 PM by Acebird » Logged

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rdy-b
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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2011, 04:12:14 PM »

You could compare it to a ice cream stand that operates 3 months out of the year.  The chances are you would never see the FDA or any other official on the premises once you pasted the first inspection.  You wouldn't want to get sick from the ice cream would you?  Why is honey different?
 go buy some ice cream acebird-- cheesy
http://www.helpthehoneybees.com/   --RDY-B
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Acebird
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2011, 07:00:21 PM »

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Processed food regs, the facility , room, building, whatever or where ever you choose to process your honey  must comply,

Not that you would ever need to but you could rent a kitchen, hamburger stand, ice cream stand what ever that has already passed all the regs to produce 100 pounds of honey.  Regulation is funded by catching violators and fining them.  They have to make more than their salary so they are not going to fiddle around with a small fry.

How many inspectors have you seen at a church kitchen, firemens bazar or even a county fair?  There is no money in it.  If they were to harrass small local groups people will get together and shame the regulators.  You are worried about nothing.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2011, 10:22:04 PM »

They have to make more than their salary so they are not going to fiddle around with a small fry.

That's exactly right - and in order to enforce the law uniformly - the small fry has to either get 100% compliant - or be denied a license to vend altogether - where if Mr/Ms. "Small Fry" proceeds to sell out of license s/he will be fined an appropriate amount to cover the hassle of having to hassle the small fry.
(sort of like when they outlawed journeyman tradesmen from doing side jobs - a traditional function of journeypersons since the invention of trades until recently - to the tune of Felony.)
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Grandpa Jim
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2011, 03:52:41 AM »

I can tell you that here in PA the inspectors ARE checking the church kitchens, firemans bazaars and county fairs(if they operate for more than 3 days huh).   I have dealt with food inspectors for more than 30 years and for the most part they are fair.  But knowingly try to pull something over on them and they can make your life...we'll just say not so happy!! 
As of Jan 22, Pa has changed much of its food processor laws and they put everyone into the same category from Tastycake to Mom baking some cupcakes for the corner store....wait we don't have corner stores anymore..OK..a farmers market.  One of the first rules on the list is "No animals/pets in the home at anytime".  Does that mean that Goldy will have to be flushed before I am allowed to extract honey in my home??  Fred the hamster in my son's bedroom on the other end of the house has to go too.  And then there are the zoning permits..that's another story!!
Acebird, I do not know of any food service kitchens that are going to let you come in and extract and bottle honey between midnight and 5am (the only time most are not operating, if even then ....and I am sure that is your prefered time to do it) under their liability and such...not in today's world...not in my kitchen.
Jim
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buzzbee
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2011, 07:17:49 AM »

Grandpa Jim,may I use your kitchen on Aug 15th?  evil
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oliver
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2011, 07:42:56 AM »

Acebird, your thoughts and suggestions appreciated, but are not reasonable or feasable for me, the thought of locating and renting a kitchen, hauling full supers, extractor and what ever else is required, getting finished cleaned up and out on someone elses time frame, just does not get it for me.. As far as nothing to worry about, we live in a rural county, not many people, believe at last count 3 health inspectors, can't get lost in the herd..processors of any kind stand out like a dime in a goats ass..They shut down a boy scout fund raiser grilling pork chop sandwiches, after my family and I were already contaminated..Guess we should feel safer knowing these tax payer funded agents are out there looking out for well being..
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Acebird
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2011, 09:15:50 AM »

Quote
They shut down a boy scout fund raiser grilling pork chop sandwiches, after my family and I were already contaminated..Guess we should feel safer knowing these tax payer funded agents are out there looking out for well being..

I think you are saying you got sick.

Would you except animal fecal matter in your honey?  Do you think any of your customers would accept that if they knew about it?  Now I want to know if you process your honey in your kitchen how do you insure that you don't have contaminants getting into your honey?

Quote
under their liability and such...not in today's world...not in my kitchen.
Unless you are McDonald's restaurants usually close at least once a week.  The liabilities are no different than your food preparations.  You would have to approve their process and watch over them.  Then charge accordingly.  I don't think you would charge 10k would you?
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2011, 09:34:49 AM »

...wrap the whole world in bubble wrap and disinfect every pre-packaged bite of soylent green. So who do I sue or fine for corralling away all the adventure and spontaneity, and freedom out of being alive? -I hate what you've done with the place.
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D Coates
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« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2011, 11:12:37 AM »

I hate what you've done with the place.

Some folks are simply toxic and enjoy stirring the pot with snide comments and unpleasentries.  They have no real life and instead make an on-line one where they beat their as holier-than-thou chest an act like know it all bullies.  What I find ironic is they've never actually had to live by the regs/lifestyles they want to enforce on those who disagree.

In short, they are better off ignored.  Sadly, I've begun to visit this website less because of this.
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Grandpa Jim
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« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2011, 10:21:53 PM »

Buzzbee....Do you want the 12-3 or the 3-5am slot.    Both are open on Aug 15....But I will have to have my kitchen back at 5 as I have a breakfast meeting eating at 7 that day Smiley

Acebird....Yes I would have to oversee everything because if there would be a liability issue it would come back to bite me in the butt not you.  The other thing is.....there goes the 5 hours a day that I get to go home (we do operate 7 days a week and I am here everyone of them, including holidays) and what would you charge for that service in your line of work??

As for contaminated honey....do you know how that Chinese family processed the honey that is on the Big Box store shelf?   Do you think they had to flush their gold fish and remove their son's hamster before they extracted honey in their kitchen??  Do you think every barrel of honey that left China, went to Columbia (where the barrels were repainted so it would not look like it came from China), than went to Canada, where it was finally trucked into the US is really PURE HONEY just because some inspector certified a sample from 1 or 2 barrels??

If Goldy did happen to jump into a bottle of my honey and you bought it, you would not buy my honey again and you would tell 100 people not to buy my honey..and I would be out of business....but you would not be sickened.  Really, If I want to continue to sell any product, I will not let anything crap in it.  If you have a problem you would have bought it from someone you can find....try to find that family in China.
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Acebird
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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2011, 09:29:49 AM »

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Acebird....Yes I would have to oversee everything because if there would be a liability issue it would come back to bite me in the butt not you.  The other thing is.....there goes the 5 hours a day that I get to go home (we do operate 7 days a week and I am here everyone of them, including holidays) and what would you charge for that service in your line of work??

Jim, we are talking about a small time operation 100# of honey.  This person is not going to seek out someone like yourself operating 7 days a week plus holidays.

Quote
If Goldy did happen to jump into a bottle of my honey and you bought it, you would not buy my honey again and you would tell 100 people not to buy my honey..and I would be out of business....but you would not be sickened.  Really, If I want to continue to sell any product, I will not let anything crap in it.  If you have a problem you would have bought it from someone you can find....try to find that family in China.

This is my argument.  You can't have regulation without having regulation.  If you want to stop the crap from China or anywhere else how can you do it without regulation?  It seems that people are paranoid about the government shutting down a garage operation but have no concerns about body scans and wire tapping.
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Grandpa Jim
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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2011, 11:19:18 AM »

I think we agree that we should be able to insure that what we buy is safe, but we disagree as to how it should be done.  If China is sending us crap regulate imports.  I don't feel you have to regulate the locals selling to locals that have not had a problem, just because a some other country is sending in junk.

I feel education is better than regulation.  In food service we must have a person on staff at all times who has completed the Serv-safe certification.  I sent and paid for 4 employees, my wife and myself.  The class was good, but being that our government was involved it came down to the fee was the important part.  It's purpose was education....if you got 60% on the test you were certified (that means you got 40% wrong).  We all did much better than that, but (and I went around with the state on this) they could not tell you what you got wrong.  I was told it is a certified test and we cannot tell you the answers (it was multiple choice, if I got one wrong I want to correct it in my own mind...the purpose was education wasn't it??)  So the person preparing your food, in your favorite restaurant, could have had 40% wrong in handling food properly class and and the state cannot tell them what they did not understand.  The book had the questions on one page and the answers on the next, the test was multiple choice and tests were not all in the same order so where is the harm in telling someone what questions they had wrong so they can better understand food safty?? 

I don't want to rant here, it's just when we get government REGULATIONS they don't fix anyting, they just make doing anything a hassle and then they collect a fee (the important part).   Educate beekeepers on proper handling of honey, all these regulations will discourage many from even keeping bees, giving those imports a bigger market. 
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Acebird
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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2011, 03:10:05 PM »

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I don't feel you have to regulate the locals selling to locals that have not had a problem, just because a some other country is sending in junk.

I don't feel you should regulate locals selling to locals either.  This is regulation going too far.  In most cases what tends to happen is a bureaucracy is created to look at the big picture.  Stop the atrocities that you mentioned and keep big industry from going astray.  All these regulations are funded by fine revenues and licensing.  As time goes on infractions decrease to the point that it can't support the bureaucracy that was created so they start looking at smaller and smaller businesses to get the revenue back.  What needs to happen is the down sizing of the bureaucracy when it is no longer required.  That is the part that people don't like about government.  It has no way of measuring its usefulness.  Once created it can't be abolished or reduced.  Initially though, it is a good thing.

Quote
I feel education is better than regulation.


In the case of the small fry, yes.  In the case of the big whale, absolutely not.  The big whale knows it is doing wrong but puts profit on a higher importance than integrity.  Left unabated the consumer will loose every time.
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oliver
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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2011, 03:59:50 PM »

I kept bees from the late 60's until 85, vandals with shotguns devastated an out yard incecticide via helicopter finished off what was left that summer, had niether the desire or finances to continue.. Kept 10 to 15 colonies. We had people calling for 2yrs after wanting to know if  honey was avail. My son and grandson have  some interest in bees, so I started going through what was left,(don't throw anything away) cleaning wood ware and eqip, quite a chore..have come up with enough good to put together 8 colonies..Then I was told about the new regs about processing honey here, felt like i got kicked in the stomach.. I don't think any amout of regulation or inspection can make a shoddy operator honest..A lot of it is a matter of trust, I trust the lady at the bake sale that those cookies are safe, they do not have ot have a gov stamp. I do not trust a lot of products from other countries, even though the gov has given the approval of their sale here.. It is an insult for someone to think I would give my family or sell anything to our neighbors that which was less than the best, or had been mishandled in any way..
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Acebird
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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2011, 06:51:06 PM »

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I do not trust a lot of products from other countries, even though the gov has given the approval of their sale here..


We import so much.  I would not be surprised if you weren't eating something from another country and not even know it.  You really have to check labels but first there has to be a requirement to have one.
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Grandpa Jim
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 04:15:55 PM »

Don't give them anymore ideas or your plate will arrive at your table with 10 sheets of paper explaining where every item came from, it's nutritional value, how soon you can expect to die if you eat too much of it etc. Two trees will die just to complete the paperwork for a wedding party of 100.

You are right, I look in my freezer; Snap peas...Guatemala, mixed vegetables ...Mexico, baby carrots...Israel,  Corn, most times from China, but right now it is from USA.  The box will say packed in New Jersey, but a product of some other country.  I have sent back corn from China (not to China) their quality is generally, well there is NO Quality!   
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backyard warrior
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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 08:18:00 PM »

I really think Bjorn and Acebird are bonding lately Smiley
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bullship
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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2011, 11:40:45 AM »

Fellow Beeks;
The 10K is way toooooooo low.USDA/FDA regs. WILL weed out all small operations!!!
To start a food business
County and Township permits for Approved sewer and well plus land use permit. may have to rezone as well.
water must be tested for coliforms and nitrates if it doesn't pass ,new well.
seperate building with no exposed wood, curbed wall and floor junction, sealed, Smooth easily cleanable floors, walls and ceiling.3 compartment sink, mop sink and seperate handwash sinks in all work areas. handwash must have hot and cold plumbed water,liquid soap, nail brush and single use towels.
drain lines and restroom drain lines can not junction inside building.All plumbing must be installed by a licensed plumber after a plumbing permit is obtained from the state.
All equipment must be NSF or equivalant.All for a $50.00 to $100.00 annual license and then a HACCP plan(paper plan for SAFE OPERATION with critical control points and logs)annual inspection and retain all records for 2 or more years.
Bullship: huh ;
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Bullship
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