Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Combining question again.  (Read 2305 times)

Offline Jerrymac

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6047
  • Gender: Male
Combining question again.
« on: June 10, 2005, 05:48:19 PM »
Well that's it. That one hive that has had problems that had what I thought were queen cells and that I thought must have a laying worker is now still full of drone cells. Don't see any worker cells at all, and now no queen cells. The suspected queen cells was around the 19th last month.

So here is my plan. I'm going to set a double screen between this hive and another. (This one on top) and leave them for awhile. How long you think? And if this one does have a laying worker, would I still need to shake them out. Or just wait for all these drones to hatch and see if there is more.

Do you think the drone cells will stop after the scent of a queen get purged through this box?

Or perhaps after placing these on top, just let them do there thing untill no more bees in there, then merge the combs. Perhaps some, most of the workers might actually drift into the lower box.

Just rambling with thoughts.    :roll:
:rainbowflower:  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   :rainbowflower:

 :jerry:

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/

Offline stilllearning

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 90
Re: Combining question again.
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2005, 07:51:33 PM »
Quote from: Jerrymac
Well that's it. That one hive that has had problems that had what I thought were queen cells and that I thought must have a laying worker is now still full of drone cells. Don't see any worker cells at all, and now no queen cells. The suspected queen cells was around the 19th last month.

So here is my plan. I'm going to set a double screen between this hive and another. (This one on top) and leave them for awhile.(SOUNDS LIKE
A GOOD PLAN TO ME)
 How long you think?YOU SHOULD WAIT 24 TO 26 DAYS AFTER YOU SEE
LAST CELL CAPPED.
 And if this one does have a laying worker, (IF YOU HAVE A LAYING WORKER YOU PROBABLE WILL NOT SEE ALL CELL CAPPED SHE WILL
CONTINUE TO LAY SOMEWHERE0
would I still need to shake them out. Or just wait for all these drones to hatch and see if there is more.

Do you think the drone cells will stop after the scent of a queen get purged through this box?(I WOULD NOT COUNT ON THE SCENT OF A QUEEN STOPPING A LAYING WORKER, YOUR BEES HAVE ALREADY
ACCEPTED HER AS A QUEEN AND WILL PROBABLY DEFEND HER LIKE
THEY WOULD A QUEEN.)

Or perhaps after placing these on top, just let them do there thing untill no more bees in there, then merge the combs. Perhaps some, most of the workers might actually drift into the lower box. (THERE IS ALWAYS THE POSSIBLILTY OF THE LAYING WORKER DRIFTING ALSO  IN MY FIFTY OR SO YEARS OF WORKING WITH BEES, I HAVE ONLY SEEN A COUPLE OF LAYING WORKERS. MAYBE MICHAL BUSH WILL HAVE SOME BETTER ANSWERS.  I POST AS STILLLEARNING BECAUSE I STILL LEARN SOMETHING MOST DAYS FROM THIS FORUM.)

Just rambling with thoughts.    :roll:
Wayne Cole

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14443
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Combining question again.
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2005, 11:19:56 PM »
>So here is my plan. I'm going to set a double screen between this hive and another. (This one on top) and leave them for awhile. How long you think? And if this one does have a laying worker, would I still need to shake them out. Or just wait for all these drones to hatch and see if there is more.

I have tried many methods to resolve laying workers.  Some of them work some of the time.  Most of them fail most of the time.  The simplest and most practical solution is to take the laying worker hive and move it.  Then shake them all out on the ground in front of your other hives.  Either put the empty frames on other hives or put them in the freezer to kill the drone brood and THEN put them in other hives.  This is the simplest, most straightforward, most foolproof thing to do with a laying worker hive.  Later you can split one of your srtronger hives and then you'll have another hive again.

If you really want to waste a lot of time and effort resolving the laying worker scenerio here are the things I have done that sometimes work.

1)  Put a frame of worker brood in and see if they will raise a queen.  Occasionally they do.  Usually they don't.

2)  Put a queen cell in (either a frame from a hive trying to supercede or swarm or one that you made by queen rearing techniques).  Sometimes they will let the queen emerge.  Usually they will tear it down.

3)  Put a virgin queen in.  Just smoke it heavily and run her in.  Sometimes they will accept her.  Usually they will ball her.

4)  Put a laying worker hive over an queenright hive on a double screen board (as you are proposing).  After about a week, do a newspaper combine.  Usually they will accept the queen.  Sometimes they will kill the queen in the queenright hive and you now have a very large laying worker hive.

5)  Put a laying worker hive over a queenright hive on a double screen board (as you are proposing) and after about a week, shake the laying worker hive out in front of the queen right hive.  This almost always works.

6)  Make a queenright nuc from a queen and some brood from a queenright hive.  Put the nuc over a double screen board over the laying worker hive.  After a week do a newspaper combine.  Usually this works.  Sometimes they kill the queen.

7)  Put a frame of emerging brood with a queen in a push in cage in the laying worker hive.  After a week or so release her.  This usually works.  Sometimes they will kill the queen.


>Do you think the drone cells will stop after the scent of a queen get purged through this box?

No.  Not until they are combined.  The QMP from the queen won't get through the doublescreen (it is passed from probiscus to probiscus).  A few other queen pheromones will waft through.  I don't think they will supress the laying workers.

>Or perhaps after placing these on top, just let them do there thing untill no more bees in there, then merge the combs. Perhaps some, most of the workers might actually drift into the lower box.

They may drift to the queenright hive.  A lot of workers in laying worker hives do.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline Jerrymac

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6047
  • Gender: Male
Combining question again.
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2005, 11:31:04 PM »
Quote from: Michael Bush


I have tried many methods to resolve laying workers.  Some of them work some of the time.  Most of them fail most of the time.  The simplest and most practical solution is to take the laying worker hive and move it.  Then shake them all out on the ground in front of your other hives.  Either put the empty frames on other hives or put them in the freezer to kill the drone brood and THEN put them in other hives.  This is the simplest, most straightforward, most foolproof thing to do with a laying worker hive.  Later you can split one of your srtronger hives and then you'll have another hive again.


So just any spot on the ground infront of the other hives and they will go to one or the other hives.   Right?

As my hives are on a stand about a foot should I place a ramp up to the hives? Or just let the fliers fly and the walkers walk and forget about the ones that don't make it.
:rainbowflower:  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   :rainbowflower:

 :jerry:

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/

Offline bill

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Combining question again.
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2005, 11:57:36 PM »
while we are on this subject I heard or read somewhere I don't really remember where but I know micheal will know. can you use mint oil syrup sprayed on bees that would otherwise be killed, workers or queen.? if so how long would it last or would they get used to each other and be thus combined. I didn't pay much attn. at the time as I didnt't know how hard it is to combine bees and introduce queens but I have  been trying to remember where I saw it.
billiet

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14443
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Combining question again.
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2005, 10:47:42 AM »
>So just any spot on the ground infront of the other hives and they will go to one or the other hives. Right?

Yes. Anywhere will do.  They will have to enter someone elses home territory as beggars looking for a home.  But most will return to the old location and circle until they find some hive and wonder in.  Some will smell the one in front of them and go in right away.

>As my hives are on a stand about a foot should I place a ramp up to the hives?

No.

>Or just let the fliers fly and the walkers walk and forget about the ones that don't make it.

Virtually all the healthy bees will find a home.  The only time I've had a problem is when I left some comb laying out and a lot of bees from the laying worker hive that I shook out settled on the comb and wouldn't leave it.  THey still survived, but it took me a couple of days to realize they were living there.  I shook them out and removed that comb and they moved in somewhere.

>while we are on this subject I heard or read somewhere I don't really remember where but I know micheal will know. can you use mint oil syrup sprayed on bees that would otherwise be killed, workers or queen.?

It think it's best to rely on things like a shake out combine (as just described above) or a newspaper combine.  The syrup might help stack the deck in situations where there isn't time to mess with it or the likely hood of problems is low (like adding a frame of bees to a struggling hive).  I am not in the habit of doing it.

>if so how long would it last or would they get used to each other and be thus combined.

A standard combine is a sheet of newspaper between two colonies.  It works great almost all the time.

>I didn't pay much attn. at the time as I didnt't know how hard it is to combine bees and introduce queens but I have been trying to remember where I saw it.

A lot of people do such things and have reported doing such things to help the process.  A lot of smoke from the smoker will do just as much to confuse them.  The syrup probably works as well as the smoke, but if you really have a situation that requires help you need to do a newspaper combine anyway.
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline latebee

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 314
Combining question again.
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2005, 01:07:09 AM »
After losing two queens this year($34.50)in an attempt to get a laying worker hive to accept them I finally met with success by using a varition of what Michael suggested
Quote
5)Put a laying worker hive over a queenright hive over a double screen.
and also
Quote
6)make a queenright nuc from a queen and some brood from a queenright hive. Put the nuc over a double screen board over the laying worker hive.After a week do the newspaper combine.
     What I actually did was to place a nuc over the laying worker hive over a double screen board for a week.Then I placed it UNDER the laying worker hive and reversed the entrance of the laying worker hive.I then kept  the queenright nuc entrance in the same position as the original hive. All the returning foragers went in to the entrance they were used to,and the laying worker hive was ignored for the most part for a couple of days by the foragers. After 10 days I removed the double screen and did a newspaper combine.It has been three weeks since I tried this and now have lots of worker brood in the bottom and about one third of the newspaper is chewed through.So far so good.I also had a hivetop feeder in place for the entire period.I only have tried this once but it was rewarding to see it work out.
The person who walks in another's tracks leaves NO footprints.